[xenocyon]

Personally: having learned of their scummy practices, I will not be supporting DoorDash or Instacart ever again, regardless of whether they change policy now in response to being exposed.

Why so unforgiving? Because you can't deter unethical behavior by merely asking for a perpetrator to discontinue the unethical behavior if/when exposed. The expected value of a penalty needs to exceed the financial reward of the behavior it is meant to punish. Furthermore, I don't trust companies who are likely to be unethical the moment someone isn't looking.

[milesskorpen]

By their scummy practices, are you referring to their tipping policy?

I'm not sure I fully understand the backlash. Yes, the tipping policy didn't meet people's expectations ... but it seems almost exactly the same s how tipping + wages work for wait staff in restaurants (where restaurants are allowed to pay them less than minimum wage, as long as the difference is offset by tips).

Why are we okay with this policy, which is enshrined in law, for restaurant wait staff but not for delivery drivers?

A reasonable argument is that tips should always go direct to the staff and they should also at least make minimum wage, but that'd represent a huge change from the status quo and people aren't freaking out about how restaurant staff are compensated, so it seems like this hits a different emotional chord for some reason. Maybe it's more evil-seeming coming from a large tech-ish company rather than SMBs?

[xenocyon]

Firstly, restaurants are not allowed to pay "less than minimum wage" in any US state, though some states have two separate minimum wage rates for tipped and untipped employees. (NB: all west coast states in the US have just one minimum wage that applies for all employees, tipped or not.)

But more fundamentally Instacart and Doordash deceived consumers in a way restaurants don't. Say minimum wage for tipped employees is $4, a restaurant pays a $5 wage and I tip $2, I expect that the staff gets the $5 wage and the $2 tip (whether pooled or otherwise). If the restauranteur uses my $2 tip to cut wages below $5, then that would be illegal and outrageous. The minimum wage amount of $4 does not even enter into the calculation in this example, except defining the floor for the restaurant to pay its tipped employees.

[cgriswald]

> Firstly, restaurants are not allowed to pay "less than minimum wage" in any US state, though some states have two separate minimum wage rates for tipped and untipped employees.

This is a difference without distinction. It is the separate minimum wage for tipped employees which allows the restaurant to pay less than the minimum wage. If the tipped employee minimum wage is $A and the untipped employee minimum wage is $B, and the tipped employee earns $C in tips:

The restaurant must pay $A. If $A + $C < $B, the restaurant must pay $B -($C + $A) more so the employee earns $B. Else, the restaurant doesn't have to pay anymore.

That's exactly how DoorDash works. They pay $1 (equivalent to $A), guarantee another amount (equivalent to $B), and if $A + $C < $B, they fill in the difference.

> But more fundamentally Instacart and Doordash deceived consumers in a way restaurants don't.…

How so? They operate exactly as restaurants do in tipped employee minimum wages states in regard to tips.

[Bjartr]

> Why are we okay with this policy, which is enshrined in law, for restaurant wait staff but not for delivery drivers?

Personally, I am not okay with the law. An employer should pay a living wage. That said, I'm biased because I would vastly prefer to avoid the anxiety I feel around figuring out the right amount to tip such that I don't feel scummy nor taken advantage of. I went there to eat some food, not feel anxious.

[advarckcal]

But this tip goes towards minimum wage is illegal in California where all these companies are based.

[lancesells]

I just did the same with Amazon since they have the same tip practices as DoorDash. That and reading about the Ring Alarm system being sold by law enforcement it just put me over the edge.

Can I avoid AWS? No, but I can certainly not spend my own money directly on any of their services.

[maksimum]

Have you been tipping on your AWS bill? Or the package delivery workers? (What does Amazon have to do with this?)

[nvr219]

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[jmeyer2k]

I drove for DoorDash and I absolutely prefer the guaranteed amount with them keeping the tips.

First of all, people tip beforehand so it's not based on quality of service anyway.

Second of all, it makes DoorDash a steady stream of income instead of hoping that you'll be tipped enough. Most people don't tip and if the tip is large enough, you do receive the tip.

[femto113]

I think this wasn't really a bad deal for the drivers, but it was essentially a lie to the consumers: they think tipping will make a difference for the driver, but instead it only makes a difference to DoorDash. What's really needed is a minimum wage that applies to everyone, regardless of employee status.