[DisruptiveDave]

Let's imagine someone goes to the gym everyday and never feels a struggle whatsoever. Just straight up leisure. Somehow that person ends up with the desired results of working out.

Now someone else goes through the same process, but it's at least a partial struggle. That person has bouts of wanting to give up, of having to fight through pain and discomfort. That person wakes up half the time and their monkey brain is telling them to skip the gym today, just go back to sleep.

Person B has earned much more than a six pack in this scenario.

[NikolaNovak]

"Earned more"? Maybe. That's a subjective measurement. It also depends on circumstances.

"Accomplished more"? By your own premise, not.

In modern society both axis have value; but there is not, in my mind, bravery or respect in pointless, self-incurred, avoidable hardship.

It's a discussion I frequently have with my dad. He's extremely proud, and will tell anybody in any circumstance (get ready for too much information ;) that he went for his cystoscopy without anesthetic. But as much as I love him and he's my #1 role model in general, I don't see a point of that, and especially not as a point of pride. If you were in a country/place/situation where you can't have anesthetic, OK, now it's bravery. We all went through a war and had our lovely little chance to demonstrate bravery (do not recommend / would not buy again;). But if anesthetic is available, the norm, right there, and you refuse it, what is the moral victory here?

Again, I absolutely will give points for effort and bravery in face of hardship. But your description of person B, on its face, is just pointless hardship for the sake of hardship. It feels like person A will accomplish three more things in the time it took person B to accomplish that one, so again, assuming it's self-incurred, they're just slowing themselves down and handicapping for no good reason. ️

(note: if in your scenario they have different circumstances that forced hardship on B but not on A, that's different; but it feels you're championing hardship for the sake of hardship, and I firmly believe societal progress is all about eliminating as much hardship as we can for as many people as we can, so we can step up to the next level of accomplishment rather than being stuck on something that can be made easier)

[DisruptiveDave]

Feel like we're talking about slightly different things here. Bravery has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about what you, as a human being, gain from going through a challenge. A challenge that you need to actively work at overcoming. Your example of your dad doesn't qualify here. That's just dealing with pain, not actively developing a new skill over time.

Let's say I, as a non-runner, decide I want to run a marathon in 6 months. Everything that happens between now and then - setting a goal, learning how to train, putting in the work every single day, fighting through the foot pain, skipping out on that ice cream, etc. - will serve me well beyond the singular race.

That's what I'm talking about. My original post was referencing silly marketing language that improving yourself shouldn't feel like work. Imagine someone stated that "training for a marathon shouldn't feel like work." Yes, it motherfucking should. Otherwise you're just skipping out on the stuff that will make you a better/stronger person in favor of some outcome that doesn't truly matter in the long term.

[pdpi]

> Otherwise you're just skipping out on the stuff that will make you a better/stronger person in favor of some outcome that doesn't truly matter in the long term.

This is the tricky bit. The stated goal is "running a marathon". What you're effectively saying is that the stated goal is not the real goal, and that the real goal is self-improvement for its own sake, with the marathon just being an arbitrary OKR.

Perhaps I'm already in a perfectly fine physical condition, I'm more than capable of running a marathon, and all the preparation I need is learning the pace of a marathon. Perhaps all those self-improvement benefits are things I've already achieved in my life and are not lessons I need to relearn. Perhaps I don't give a damn about any of those so-called self-improvement benefits, and just want to run.

What I "should" get from the experience is entirely up to me, and you're in no position to impose more goals than the stated "I want to run a marathon" goal.

[Asooka]

Apart from more suffering, I fail to see what person B has earned more of.

[borski]

The ability to persevere. You will face difficult challenges you are unprepared for; knowing how to handle such challenges when they appear, and having practice persevering... that’s a very important win.

[manjana]

Boils down to problem solving capabilities which is always useful.

[DisruptiveDave]

Do you not see value in overcoming challenges? In experiencing difficulties and pushing through self-imposed barriers? Do you not think someone who trains to climb Mt Everest, experiences the multitude of ups and downs (pun!) along the way, might have developed skills that will serve them in other situations?

[NikolaNovak]

Sure, but I think you need more details in your description if you want to make a specific point.

Per my other post, right now it feels like Person B just took an extra hardship for no good reason whatsoever other than its a hardship. If that's their norm, if they keep taking unnecessary hardships, they'll just constantly accomplish less for no specific reason.

If this is a hobby, a challenge they set for themselves, then this is no longer about specific accomplishment but about challenge itself. But then it doesn't apply to the course - which aims to produce a result with less hardship. Which is what most of us most of the time seek - I have a car because it's less hardship than walking 57km a day in rain to my work. I have an apartment because it's less hardship than living in a tent in a big city. I wear warm clothes in the winter because it's less hardship than being very cold constantly. I read articles because it's less hardship than watching long protracted videos. If I aim to learn something and that's the entirety of my goal, I will absolutely seek out the most efficient path there without.

Back in the day, back in the old country, my math teacher insisted we all use a book of logarithmic and trig tables. It was couple of hundred pages of numbers. It accomplished exactly the same thing as a calculator - it didn't enable us to learn anything more or figure out result ourselves - it was just harder than a calculator - a hardship for sake of hardship. The prof never ever could understand that it brought us no benefit over a calculator - and time saved could've been spent actually learning something extra or something better.

So there's a place for self-imposed barriers, occasionally, for specific purposes. But they're not inherently good or to be sought out - especially when you have an actual, specific goal and objective you want to accomplish.

[DisruptiveDave]

> But then it doesn't apply to the course - which aims to produce a result with less hardship.

And my point is it will fail. You won't get the best result without the hardship, and it's disingenuous to claim so. That's my opinion.

> Which is what most of us most of the time seek - I have a car because it's less hardship than walking 57km a day in rain to my work. I have an apartment because it's less hardship than living in a tent in a big city. I wear warm clothes in the winter because it's less hardship than being very cold constantly. I read articles because it's less hardship than watching long protracted videos.

I get what you're saying. But I see this as a problem long term. I see an optimization of comfort and "get to the end result as fast and 'efficient' as possible" and I don't like what that says for the future of human beings. Again, my opinion. Neither of us is wrong or right here.

[menacingly]

If you saw it, you would appreciate it

[ybrickman]

Self-discipline.