[NikolaNovak]

"Earned more"? Maybe. That's a subjective measurement. It also depends on circumstances.

"Accomplished more"? By your own premise, not.

In modern society both axis have value; but there is not, in my mind, bravery or respect in pointless, self-incurred, avoidable hardship.

It's a discussion I frequently have with my dad. He's extremely proud, and will tell anybody in any circumstance (get ready for too much information ;) that he went for his cystoscopy without anesthetic. But as much as I love him and he's my #1 role model in general, I don't see a point of that, and especially not as a point of pride. If you were in a country/place/situation where you can't have anesthetic, OK, now it's bravery. We all went through a war and had our lovely little chance to demonstrate bravery (do not recommend / would not buy again;). But if anesthetic is available, the norm, right there, and you refuse it, what is the moral victory here?

Again, I absolutely will give points for effort and bravery in face of hardship. But your description of person B, on its face, is just pointless hardship for the sake of hardship. It feels like person A will accomplish three more things in the time it took person B to accomplish that one, so again, assuming it's self-incurred, they're just slowing themselves down and handicapping for no good reason. ️

(note: if in your scenario they have different circumstances that forced hardship on B but not on A, that's different; but it feels you're championing hardship for the sake of hardship, and I firmly believe societal progress is all about eliminating as much hardship as we can for as many people as we can, so we can step up to the next level of accomplishment rather than being stuck on something that can be made easier)

[DisruptiveDave]

Feel like we're talking about slightly different things here. Bravery has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about what you, as a human being, gain from going through a challenge. A challenge that you need to actively work at overcoming. Your example of your dad doesn't qualify here. That's just dealing with pain, not actively developing a new skill over time.

Let's say I, as a non-runner, decide I want to run a marathon in 6 months. Everything that happens between now and then - setting a goal, learning how to train, putting in the work every single day, fighting through the foot pain, skipping out on that ice cream, etc. - will serve me well beyond the singular race.

That's what I'm talking about. My original post was referencing silly marketing language that improving yourself shouldn't feel like work. Imagine someone stated that "training for a marathon shouldn't feel like work." Yes, it motherfucking should. Otherwise you're just skipping out on the stuff that will make you a better/stronger person in favor of some outcome that doesn't truly matter in the long term.

[pdpi]

> Otherwise you're just skipping out on the stuff that will make you a better/stronger person in favor of some outcome that doesn't truly matter in the long term.

This is the tricky bit. The stated goal is "running a marathon". What you're effectively saying is that the stated goal is not the real goal, and that the real goal is self-improvement for its own sake, with the marathon just being an arbitrary OKR.

Perhaps I'm already in a perfectly fine physical condition, I'm more than capable of running a marathon, and all the preparation I need is learning the pace of a marathon. Perhaps all those self-improvement benefits are things I've already achieved in my life and are not lessons I need to relearn. Perhaps I don't give a damn about any of those so-called self-improvement benefits, and just want to run.

What I "should" get from the experience is entirely up to me, and you're in no position to impose more goals than the stated "I want to run a marathon" goal.