[cameronbrown]

There's two Google apps I just can't live without: YouTube and Google Maps. There's simply no alternative to the amount of value these bring me. OSM is getting good but it's just not there yet. I'm working on this in my area.

I'd suggest to anyone worried about Google tracking to use Privacy Guard built into LineageOS, which aims to make each and every request for sensitive permissions explicit.

A big benefit of free software is that we can also use useful proprietary apps without giving up control of our hardware.

[commoner]

Google Maps is fully compatible with MicroG, a free and open source replacement for the Google Play Services client. MicroG includes UnifiedNlp, which was discussed in the blog post.

https://microg.org/

https://lineage.microg.org/

At the moment, I recommend the previous version of MicroG (0.2.6.13280) since the latest version (0.2.7.17455) may have compatibility issues. If you're using LineageOS for MicroG, builds on or before June 2 use the previous version.

NewPipe is like YouTube, but also with a background music player, a video/audio downloader, and no ads. It also supports SoundCloud.

https://newpipe.schabi.org/

You can use NewPipe regardless of whether you are using LineageOS or MicroG. It's not available in the Google Play Store (or the iOS App Store) for obvious reasons, but you can download it for any Android device from F-Droid.

[VvR-Ox]

NewPipe is one of "THE APPS" that make me regret a bit that I had to move to iOS again.

The possibility to just download and listen offline and also to create playlists without an account are awesome.

[olah_1]

Just sharing Invidious (website version of NewPipe). It's amazing.

https://invidio.us/

https://github.com/omarroth/invidious

[VvR-Ox]

Thank you very much for sharing!

I'm afraid atm it doesn't work for me (iPhone SE - iOS 12.3.1 - Firefox & Safari).

Nevertheless their work is awesome and the idea to aggregate all the things and let user's enjoy them without having to promise their first-born to providers is just amazing ^_^

[omarroth]

Would you mind providing some more details on what issues you're encountering?

[VvR-Ox]

The message I get is "The media could not be loaded, either because the server or network failed or because the format is not supported". It appears in the square where the video would appear (firefox & safari).

It also seems to be in a loop, reloading the page on and on with this result.

The result is the same with mobile internet as with my home connection.

[izacus]

MicroG talks to Google servers and uses Google's infrastructure while breaking the terms of service (at least in case of FCM).

Same goes with NewPipe - you're using YouTube without actually paying for bandwidth, storage costs or the video author.

So you're not actually getting yourself rid of Google or tracking, you're just using their resources without paying the asking price.

Use other alternatives instead.

[autoexec]

> Same goes with NewPipe - you're using YouTube without actually paying for bandwidth, storage costs or the video author.

> So you're not actually getting yourself rid of Google or tracking, you're just using their resources without paying the asking price.

I love newpipe. I block ads on my desktop, I'm not going to feel bad blocking them on my phone. Google has taken far too much from us, from me, for me to worry about their bandwidth or storage costs. Somehow I think the multinational billionaires will manage.

As for video creators (who themselves are regularly screwed over by Google) they should be supported using other channels.

[kbit]

Yeah, ads are a terrible and unsustainable business model anyways. I think it's much better (both for the creator and for the business and community in general) to support YouTubers you like through something like Patreon.

[JetSpiegel]

> you're using YouTube without actually paying for bandwidth

NewPipe actually saves bandwidth when you listen to audio only. As I recall, it parses the HTML and doesn't download the wasteful video stream, if you want just the audio.

Google should thank NewPipe users for their responsible use of their free resource.

[commoner]

Similar arguments have been employed against ad blocking. Users should be aware of the ramifications of their software decisions, but whether someone should download and use Google Play Services vs. MicroG, YouTube vs. NewPipe, etc. is the user's choice.

From a privacy perspective, MicroG and NewPipe are much less intrusive than Google Play Service and YouTube, because the open source apps send less user data to Google.

[izacus]

That would be fine if they'd be clean reimplementations of an API using their own backends. But advertising services which abuse SaaS infrastructure of a company is just not ok, especially in an article that's all about not using anything from Google.

I'd feel similarly about having someone advertise a way to crack Slack enterprise features instead of using something like Matternmost.

[bubblethink]

Newpipe is literally doing what the browser does, which is fair. The rest of the argument boils down to ad blocking. If you are a stickler, you could use youtube in a browser and get the ads.

[TeMPOraL]

> But advertising services which abuse SaaS infrastructure of a company is just not ok

A nitpick, but somewhat important: they're not services, they're products. Pieces of software. Alternative user agents. Very opinionated web browsers, if you like.

[bennofs]

But using FCM is enforced by apps. If they would roll their own, no app would work.

[izacus]

Not on LineageOS or any other ROM you have MicroG installed on.

[yyyk]

NewPipe is technically no different than using a web browser which isn't Google's to browse YouTube, and that's still allowed. If Google wants to turn YouTube into a closed garden, they can go ahead - I can think of no better move to spur competition.

[paulddraper]

It's not though, according to the terms of service

[yyyk]

What ToS has NewPipe been violating? I've read the ToS[0] and it seems that NewPipe is perfectly complaint.

It accesses YouTube via "the video playback pages of the Website" so it satisfies 5.1 article C. I don't see any limitation to using browsers there.

Indeed, article H strongly implies that it is allowed to use non-browser software to access these pages - otherwise spiders and robots would be banned and there would be no point to the request limit in that article.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/static?template=terms

[paulddraper]

I believe the most relevant section is 4.F.

> If you use the Embeddable Player on your website, you may not modify, build upon, or block any portion or functionality of the Embeddable Player, including but not limited to links back to the YouTube website.

[realusername]

> MicroG talks to Google servers and uses Google's infrastructure while breaking the terms of service (at least in case of FCM).

Depending the country where you are based it might not matter, it might fall into interoperability legal exceptions.

[cameronbrown]

Blocking ads is ultimately irrelevant for me. I pay for YouTube Premium, however I get that most don't.

[izacus]

Yeah, I don't see the issue if you're paying for YT. But I'm still not a fan of having guides on how to essentially avoid paying for use of SaaS services. It's not unlike piracy.

[mindslight]

> So you're not actually getting yourself rid of Google or tracking, you're just using their resources without paying the asking price.

Google's asking price includes performing invasive surveillance. So when dodging Google's surveillance, it is impossible to access any content hosted at Google while living up to your standard. Which makes your argument a bit dishonest.

Now sure, there is a straightforward argument that the best way to push back against Google is to completely avoid content hosted there, which discourages others from hosting there in the first place. But you did not make this argument, I suspect because it's overly optimistic in an environment of heavy network effects.

[kbit]

SkyTube is another free YouTube client which works really well. One feature I am very fond of (not sure if NewPipe has that as well?) is 'subscribing' to channels through a local database, without a YouTube account.

[ayoisaiah]

Can confirm that NewPipe has this feature

[Youden]

> Google Maps is fully compatible with MicroG, a free and open source replacement for the Google Play Services client. MicroG includes UnifiedNlp, which was discussed in the blog post.

Google Maps can get its location from MicroG but in my experience it isn't even close to fully functional. Basic things like searching for a location or asking for directions just result in endless spinning.

[commoner]

Have you tried it recently? The most recent version of Google Maps works without any issues for me.

[Youden]

Yep, everything I have is up to date. Might be device/ROM dependent?

[commoner]

MicroG's latest version (0.2.7.17455) switched to Mapbox for map rendering. MicroG's implementation of Mapbox is currently buggy, although the performance is much improved. This version should have been marked as a preview release, in my view, since it's not stable enough for use.

Can you try the previous version (0.2.6.13280)? If you're using LineageOS for MicroG, the latest build on or before June 2 contains the previous version.

[diafygi]

Do you have a recommendation for a phone that has a <=5" screen that is supported by LineageOS and MicroG? It seems like most of the well supported phones are too big to comfortably fit in my pocket.

[jasonjayr]

I struggled for a long time to find a useful recommendation. I finally arrived at a way of figuring it out:

Check their stats: https://stats.lineageos.org/

Pick your country on the right, then lookup the models listed at the left from most popular to least popular.

The phones that are the most popular stand the chance of being the most stable, and best supported. I finally arrived @ "nash", which is more commonly known as the "Moto Z Force" (https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/nash). You'll have to copy/paste the code names to their devices wiki to get the specs.

I got one second hand with some wear for about US$100 on ebay. It was easy to unlock, and I'm fairly impressed with how it works with Lineage thus far (About 2-3 months as my only phone). It's 6" tall, I'm not sure the diagonal, but it fits comfortably in my pockets. I added a case since it's super thin otherwise.

#3 in the US is https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/klte @ 5.59" tall ...

[lake99]

Thank you! I'm on the lookout for a new phone supported by LOS. This will come in very handy.

[commoner]

I personally recommend the first-generation Google Pixel XL (marlin), which costs under $100 used on eBay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_(smartphone)

With MicroG, Google Camera works as it does on stock Android. Most phones on LineageOS aren't able to use their stock camera app, which results in reduced camera quality compared to stock Android. The Pixel/Nexus line, ironically, is the main exception.

Google Camera isn't available on F-Droid or Yalp/Aurora Store, but you can download it from APKMirror:

https://www.apkmirror.com/apk/google-inc/camera

(APKMirror is operated by Android Police, so it's a trusted site.)

[mindslight]

Can you elaborate on this? Is it the app itself needing to do some type of processing for peak performance, or some firmware blob that the app bundles and loads?

Pictures on my S7 herolte (microG+LOS obviously) are grainy, and investigating why is quite far down on my todo list. This wasn't a problem on i9500, klte, or shamu. I had thought the issue must be some missing firmware, either from the OS image or it got wiped somehow. Compounded by being in Exynos rather than more popular Qualcomm land. But not knowing all that much about the Android photo stack, it's interesting to hear you say it depends on the app used itself.

[commoner]

Camera quality depends on both the camera firmware blob and the camera app. On high-end Android phones, the camera app usually makes use of proprietary features on the firmware blob and performs post-processing (such as HDR and bokeh).

Other Galaxy S7 (herolte) users seem to have the same problems as you on LineageOS, but it's hard to tell exactly what causes them:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LineageOS/comments/8awrcz/herolte_g...

Also, the Galaxy S7 is no longer officially supported by LineageOS, since there are currently no active device maintainers:

https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/herolte/

It's difficult to diagnose issues with unofficial builds of LineageOS, because they most likely don't meet the LineageOS device support requirements:

https://github.com/LineageOS/charter/blob/master/device-supp...

Google Camera's post-processing has been well-received, and the app has been ported to many non-Google devices, including the Galaxy S7. I'm not sure how well the S7 ports work (especially if your S7 has an Exynos SoC) but XDA Developers has a couple of active threads here:

https://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-s7/themes

Using one of the ports might improve your camera situation. No guarantees, but it doesn't hurt to try.

I recommended the first-generation Pixel and Pixel XL because they are the only phones that are currently supported by both LineageOS and the latest version of the official (non-ported) Google Camera app. For people who aren't particular about camera features and quality, the Camera app that comes with LineageOS or any third-party camera app would be adequate, and you can use these with any supported device.

[commoner]

A correction: instead of "stock Android", I meant the factory operating system that comes with the phone.

[commoner]

Oops, I missed the "at most 5 inches" part. The first-generation Google Pixel (not XL) has a screen that measures exactly 5 inches, and is even cheaper than the XL.

[sm4rk0]

I used Moto X (1st gen) with LineageOS (Marshmallow) and microG until I broke it this May. It has a 4.7" AMOLED and 2GB RAM. CPU has only two 1.7GHz cores, but it did its job quite well even after 5 years.

[3xblah]

With the phones I have tested, Google Maps does not require a working Google Play Store. It makes sense that replacing Play Store would have no effect.

[commoner]

Google Maps doesn't require the Google Play Store, but it does require Google Play Services (like most Google apps).

https://developer.android.com/distribute/play-services/

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...

MicroG can replace the Google Play Services requirement for Google Maps. To download Google Maps without the official Google Play Store client, you can use the free and open source Aurora Store:

https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.dragons.aurora/

[3xblah]

"Google Maps doesn't require Google Play Store, but it does require Google Play Services..."

On the phones I have tested Google Maps works with Google Play Services turned off.

[commoner]

Google Maps is marked as dependent on the Google Services Framework, but it clearly doesn't use the same map tile rendering system that MicroG uses. I guess Google Play Services is only used for the logged-in features, which privacy-conscious users would avoid.

[3xblah]

This could be the explanation. I never log in. :)

Irrespective of privacy, I am just not interested in the personalisation or, e.g., reading email on a phone.

[amelius]

> Google Maps is fully compatible with MicroG

You mean it is still fully compatible with MicroG. Guess what will happen when the OS becomes popular.

[SXX]

MicroG is not an OS, but open source reimplementation of Google APIs and make usage of Google backend optional when possible (e.g push notifications). So unless Google going to drop support for all older Android versions in Maps it's all going to be alright.

[OrgNet]

if you tell your web browser to request the desktop version of youtube, it also can be used as a background music player

[oil25]

Check out NewPipe (https://github.com/TeamNewPipe/NewPipe) to replace the proprietary YouTube client on Android. For Maps, thankfully it still works in Firefox, which entirely relieves me of Google Play Services and their proprietary apps on my phone.

[webmobdev]

Google Maps replacement: https://wego.here.com/ (It's pretty decent and was owned and used by Nokia before some German automobile companies bought it. Includes traffic data and voice based navigation. And they were offering offline maps long before Google).

[m0nty]

I use this. Got fed up with Google Maps (in navigation mode) constantly trying to get my attention for things unrelated to driving. "We've found a faster route!" it would say, as if saving five minutes on a five hour journey is the least bit useful. Either I take my eyes off the road, fumble for the button to say "ignore that option", then try to re-focus on what I was doing, or it just switches me across to the other route anyway. It would do this multiple times in the journey. The wego option just does navigation, no distractions or foolishness.

[axaxs]

Same. Is there a way to disable this? I just had a 14 hour drive, so you can imagine how many stupid things it kept alerting me to. If my wife weren't there to squelch them, I'd probably have tossed it out the window.

[m0nty]

I looked for something to alter its behaviour, but there's nothing I can find. I think it's really dangerous, I'm not using Google Maps for navigation again if I can help it.

[meruru]

Maps.me is available on F-Droid: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.axet.maps/

[plaguna]

I had to uninstall it after it started to ask me to review places and locations I visited and didn't gave me the option to turn these off.

[Mediterraneo10]

Maps.me is based on OpenStreetMap data, which the OP said was not satisfactory for him.

[mda]

https://legal.here.com/en-gb/privacy

[opinologo]

After installing Netguard, I was dissapointing to see how OSM sends information from its app to Facebook.. So much for privacy I guess..

Just for clarification, I don't have Facebook installed in my phone, neither have a Facebook account.

[trickstra]

Which app do you mean by OSM? OsmAnd? Try "Maps", the forked Maps.me with tracking removed

[ekianjo]

Newpipe on FDroid completely replaced YouTube app and is much faster too. Never looked back.

[fencepost]

You might look at Here maps, which used to also be the mapping solution on Windows phone.

[tarsinge]

> There's two Google apps I just can't live without: YouTube and Google Maps.

Did you give a recent try to Apple Maps? Just finishing a few months road trip across the US and to my surprise I vastly prefer Apple Maps for the navigation and I now default to it. While in France I can't live without Waze/Google Maps because it's so efficient to workaround congestions in real time, I found it no better than Apple Maps in the US.

Otherwise I agree there is no alternative for Youtube. The move from Gmail was the easiest, and Search to DDG not really hard (with the !g keyword still handy for tech or complexes searches).

[izacus]

Apple Maps requires you to buy a device whos content is completely controlled by a single corporation and is fully locked down by pervasive DRM.

It doesn't really fit the tone of the article.

[nvrspyx]

Instead of !g, you can use !s to use Startpage, which uses Google results, but privately.

[meruru]

Or you can actually add the engines you use to your browser and skip the middle man.

[commoner]

Apple Maps would be a solid alternative to Google Maps if it were released on Android, but it's only available on iOS. The parent commenter appears to be using Android (LineageOS).

[sbr464]

Open question: Which Google Maps feature does everyone here use or value the most?

Driving/walking directions? Reliability? Traffic? Street View?

I imagine it’s a combination but curious in general what would a competitor need to master to change the conversation, if OSM isn’t there yet.

[beatgammit]

For me it's mostly driving directions, followed by reviews. OSM does that, but the interface is a bit confusing since that isn't really it's focus, and AFAIK there's nothing like their reviews (maybe an optional integration with Yelp?). And when I'm looking up directions, it seems to expect coordinates or a specific address, though usually I only have the have to name on hand, which means a separate step to look it up.

OSM has a ton of features, but the most useful ones to people who use Google Maps just aren't dead simple to use. Maybe they should make a directions-specific app. I'm not sure how good the directions are since I've only managed to use it a couple times before getting frustrated and switching back to Google Maps.

[autoexec]

In my case it's street view. Directions I can pretty much get anywhere, but nothing beats virtually taking the drive yourself so you know what to expect when going somewhere new.

I'd love to see a competitor who could make that experience a little smoother. Navigating in streetview is more like a slide show than a drive.

[kbit]

OsmAnd includes Mapillary, a crowdsourced Google Street View alternative! The idea is that over time, a collaborative database will become even more extensive than the one of a single company can ever be (just like OSM). For me, in Vienna, it already is at least as good.

Regarding your point about driving being more of a slide show: Mapillary in OsmAnd can 'drive' you along streets quite smoothly. Of course, there are are some artifacts from deforming the images, but it doesn't 'move and load' like Google Street View, it continuously moves and keeps the images at a constant quality.

[amelius]

> There's two Google apps I just can't live without: YouTube and Google Maps. There's simply no alternative to the amount of value these bring me.

Regarding YouTube, try using only their video widget, and not their recommendation engine.

[sizzle]

Why can't we sandbox apps from accessing our device/data?

Check this sandbox app out, does it work?: https://island.oasisfeng.com/

[grumdan]

Still not as good as Google Maps, but I find maps.me (also open-source and based on OSM data) significantly nicer than the default OSM client for Android (I think it's called OsmDroid or something similar).

[maxerickson]

There's no default or endorsed OSM app for any platform. The openstreetmap.org website is of course official, but it's not really an end user portal.

OSMAnd gets lots of attention though.

[scarface74]

I don’t get what’s special about the YouTube app. I deleted it from my iPhone because it was irritating clicking on a video and it launching the app.

[xref]

Strong disagree on gmaps, especially with Apple Maps available for iOS users. Gmaps is strictly better, but not enough to balance their incentive to truly abuse that data against me.

[lern_too_spel]

Apple is strictly worse on location data collection than Google, so you are not solving GP's problem. The OSM apps on Android are viable options for preserving privacy. Apple Maps is not.

[xref]

Huh? Android is the epitome of the surveillance panopticon. Google has every incentive to monetize that data for their ad sales targeting. Apple doesn’t.

Beside that I’m a big fan/contributor/user of OSM (maps.me is my app of choice there). But if you want to go with one of the big, polished players, I chose the one that has little to gain and much to lose from abusing my personal data.

[devinl]

Apple's search ads are projected to be one of the largest online advertisers in terms of ads revenue in 2020 (they have larger advertising revenue projections than both snap and twitter). Device sales in general are dropping so they are expected to continue to invest in this area of their business. Given that Apple is a large organization known for their lack of transparency, I would be very surprised if they weren't already doing shady things with user data for targeting purposes.

[millstone]

Apple says in their "Approach to Privacy" that Maps usage "can’t be tied to your Apple ID" and that no ads can access data from Maps.

These are strong unequivocal statements. We should all be very surprised if they're outright lying.

[yRetsyM]

Can't is the wrong statement. The can be. Whether they choose not to or not is a different conversation, but technically they definitely can tie these together from IP address alone.

I get frustrated with the hoodwink that Apple seems to be playing, as they move to services based revenue I have no doubt these lines are going to get blurrier and blurrier.

[millstone]

No. Apple is far far better.

You can't sign in to Apple Maps. Apple doesn't know who or where you are, except via a random frequently rotating identifier.

Google pushes you hard to sign in with your Google account, tracks your searches and location, and associates that data with everything else they know about you.

[lern_too_spel]

All of the things you listed don't apply at all to OSM maps apps and are opt out in Google maps.

In Apple's ecosystem you cannot opt out of sending Maps queries from maps links to Apple at all. Additionally, if any app at all requests your location, iOS sends your location back to Apple, and you cannot opt out. On even Google-flavored Android devices, you can choose not to send any location information to Google at all.

[dwighttk]

what does YouTube app do that the website can't?