[robenkleene]

CocoaPods, Carthage, Fastlane, git, all require the command line, and most teams use some combination of those. Not to mention Xcode literally is just a wrapper around Unix processes like `xcodebuild` and `SourceKitService`. Then there's a whole host of other support command-line utilities for doing Cocoa development like `codesign`, `xcrun`, and `xcode-select` off the top of my head.

Again, I wasn't making argument about where developers spend most of their time. Just that they need the command line as part of their workflow.

[pjmlp]

How many processes an IDE uses is an implementation detail.

The large majority of Apple and Microsoft developer communities live on their IDEs as part of our workflow.

Scripting and automatization can be easily done from the IDE as well, thanks to macros, REPL and build integration points.

Dropping down into a UNIX like CLI is the exception, not the norm for a large community.

Ah, but what about WSL? Well, Microsoft saw a market opportunity to win developers that buy Apple computers to do Linux work, instead of buying laptops from the likes of Dell/Asus/Tuxedo/system76 to start with.

So they are making UNIX devs comfortable on a foreign platform, just like NeXT was built on top of UNIX to take a piece of the pie from the UNIX workstation market being lead by Sun.

Using the shell was never a thing for NeXTSTEP nor classical Mac OS development workflow.

[robenkleene]

You seem to be saying that because developers spend 90% of their time in an editor or IDE and 10% of their time on the command line, that they don't need the command line? I think that's what you are saying with this "dropping down into a UNIX like CLI is the exception, not the norm for a large community"? Because I'm not aware of any "large community" of developers that don't use the command line at all? So the exception is when they actually have to use it? But using something a small percentage of the time of course doesn't mean it isn't important (humans spend a small percentage of time eating and if we don't we die).

Regarding Xcode being implemented by managing processes, my point is that IDE's and text editors have moved to a model of using external processes to implement features. E.g., language server protocol, linters. That iOS bans this type of application is why iOS for programming is a wasteland. The tragedy of that fact is my whole point in this thread.

[pjmlp]

We happen to live in different developer communities, it seems.

[robenkleene]

Yeah, but I'm not arguing whether developers exist who don't use the command line, of course they do. The question is simply whether the majority of programmers use the command line? I'm proposing that they do, unfortunately there's no available data for this point specifically, so we end up falling back to anecdote. But I am still super curious about your perspective on this. From what I've observed anecdotally, and from the most relevant data I've looked at, I'd guess the percentage of professional developers that rely on the command line is at least 80% (I am giving a lot of leeway for Microsoft-stack developers, which I'm not really familiar with, excluding developers using Microsoft technologies, I'd say well over 90% of professional developers rely on the command line). Do you disagree with these estimates? And if you don’t mind answering, where would you put the percent? (I'd also be super curious which technologies developers that don't use the command line are on.)

[pjmlp]

The thing you are missing that what UNIX devs rely on the command line for, is easily achievable by scripting, REPLs, and IDE integration.

For example I can do everything I need from Python or PowerShell from inside Visual Studio, just like Xerox PARC devs used to do with their REPLs on Lisp, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar workstations.

Naturally I am forced to drop down to old style command line every now and then, but that is forced upon me by tools I don't create, and most of the time they are ports from UNIX tooling.

[robenkleene]

Got it, yeah as long as we agree most programmers do use the command line. I actually agree that there are hypothetical ways a command line could almost always be replaced, but to me the important part is that most developers choose not to replace it. (And I’d argue that dependence on the command line is actually increasing overtime, with package management, version control, continuous integration, and modern editor features being implement on top of it.)

The question I pose then, is if these things are possible to do in other ways, and those other ways are better, why don't professional developers choose to use them? For example, why isn’t programming on an iPad popular? I.e., where these other methods are literally the only way to do programming on device? Using SSH to program entirely in a terminal is almost certainly more popular for professional developers than any other approach of programming on an iPad (using blog posts about how professional developers develop on an iPad as an indicator).