[pwinnski]

It seems like he said something inappropriate about a coworker's body, but it's still somehow the coworker's fault and a false allegation, according to him.

When your self-reporting still makes you sound defensive about bad behavior, you probably need to come to terms with, and take responsibility for, your actions.

[throwaway84538]

I take responsibility for my actions, but this kind of proves the point of why guys don't want to be around women in the workplace. It doesn't matter what the situation is you're automatically assumed to be a lecherous hump. My comment which was meant as a "what the hell am I supposed to say to that" could easily have been construed differently. Bad behavior? I was mentally exhausted from 12 hours on the phone, locking up for the night, and someone I barely knew starts saying sexually suggestive comments at me and literally shaking her ass as she says it. What exactly do I need to come to terms with? I apologized because whatever I said I hadn't meant to say anything. I'm not saying what I said because it would immediately identify me as it was a really awkward thing to say in any conversation but it wasn't in any way sexually suggestive, i.e. I was not making any references to performing acts on her or requesting any acts from her, nor was I asking her to take it further, I was in no way going to impact her career as I didn't even work directly with her, this was a young woman I had spoken to roughly twice prior in a simple hello in the break room. I was horribly socially awkward back then and it's taken me years to get to the point I am today in social situations, I've worked on it and gotten better and I don't tolerate sexual harassment of women in my workplace, but that's not good enough. You want to know why men stop mentoring? Because one misconstrued comment can literally cost you a job. You're automatically assumed guilty, just like on this comment thread. It kind of sounds like men need to be defensive.

[alphabettsy]

Any implications are based on exactly what you said. You painted a picture of the scenario about like looking through Jello.

In one sentence you say you made an inappropriate comment and apologized, and later lament that one misconstrued comment can cost you a job, but that’s not what happened.

It seems like you still don’t feel any responsibility. Maybe the woman did tempt you, I don’t know what she said, but you make it seems as if she made the words come from your mouth. If she made sexually suggestive comments first, that’s wrong and she should’ve been disciplined as well, but how is anyone to know that when you can’t be straightforward.

[throwaway84538]

I never said I made an inappropriate comment, I said I hadn't meant to say anything and someone could have construed it as something it wasn't. I apologized because the situation was awkward. Should women who apologize when men are harassing them be automatically considered the guilty party? At what point do I get empathy from you for being put in a situation I clearly did not put myself in. I didn't know this young woman, I hadn't made advances towards her, yet she felt it appropriate to make a very overt sexual advance at me. Yeah I see entirely that I should take responsibility for not immediately having a perfect response to an awkward situation. You've proven the point of every man who doesn't want to mentor with your comments in this thread. Guilty until proven innocent.

[philonoist]

>Any implications are based on exactly what you said. You painted a picture of the scenario about like looking through Jello.

Not at all. It is fault of our premature judgemental attitude. I have shown this how[0]. I will further prove how abysmal your comprehension skills are for all the irony to accuse him of that.

>It seems like you still don’t feel any responsibility. Maybe the woman did tempt you, I don’t know what she said, but you make it seems as if she made the words come from your mouth.

Wait a minute, so it is mere tempting if a woman does it, but sexual harassment when men does unconsented exhibition of penis? It is that easy to brush it off as be disciplined?

Did the OP request her to twerk her arse? I side with OP and yes, he shouldn't burden responsibility. She alone is responsible for making the words come out of his mouth especially in fatigue. It was non-sexual and inappropriate. That doesn't give anybody any right to fire. This is why men are not mentoring women. Your comment adds weight to their decision.

And more over, the way he said it matters more than what he said it? Like his grammar and presentation is all of a sudden the reason to judge?

As I have written it before[0] - The OP's situation is also the time where people in same page say acceptable light-hearted comments which otherwise would be inappropriate or lewd. These comments are passed by women themselves routinely and accepted very well by bosses. For I have seen women spank a guy's arse and praise "sexy!" in stationary rooms or pull tie and ask something work related with innuendos, etc. I mean obviously an action gets a reaction, however confused or exhausted it may be. In fact, many do have a slip of tongue in exhaustion, how so ever we press hard to deny them of their own life experiences. We should not treat men like they don't matter, they are constantly doubted, they are not valued and be dismissed just because the opposite party in the situation happens to be a woman.

There should be laws that outright fire these women with a code of conduct stamp as sexual harasser. That is the supposed real world we should give women to train them to treat men with respect and stop gas-lighting them.

>In one sentence you say you made an inappropriate comment and apologized, and later lament that one misconstrued comment can cost you a job, but that’s not what happened.

He apologized "any way" which means he didn't want trouble in times of paranoia and wants to assuage. Even an apology is not enough these days. It doesn't mean he acknowledges his "mistakes". And you wonder why men don't mentor women?

Why is it so hard to think that inappropriate comments can be non-sexual in nature and doesn't deserve running to parents like kids. He didn't even imply anything sexual[1]. It was you who were quick to judge. You should take responsibility. He did lose his job. He wrote that clearly in the first few sentences itself[1] and also other comment[2].

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19971760 [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19969673 [2]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19975794

[pwinnski]

To this day you mention repeatedly that the woman in question was "shaking her ass" at you. Dude, you have a problem. You clearly cannot see it, but you have a problem. I'm not making assumptions based on anything but your own words, and in your own words, you have a problem. Maybe less of a problem than you once did, but still a problem.

Also, "can literally cost you a job" but it didn't! This is said over and over and over, but the usual consequence is having a conversation with HR and then life continues as normal. Based on your words, you did not lose your job, so please stop parroting this over-the-top edge-case claim as it if were the norm.

[throwaway84538]

Lost my job. Found a new one. You're still blaming the person who was sexually harassed for not responding the way you expected them to. There was no real HR in this company. I had a problem with being an awkward communicator. In my own life it was enough to cost me my job. I provided a reason why men aren't willing to risk their careers, and you just didn't like that it actually happens. The fact of the matter is that I should never have been put in that situation in the first place. I didn't ask for the sexual advance, had I been a woman you would be entirely on my side as women shouldn't be responsible for perfect responses to sexual harassment either, and it's easier to fire a male employee and avoid an HR issue or a lawsuit than it is to do due diligence unless you're already a company that approves of a horrible workplace. I think you have a problem with the fact that this actually happened and it doesn't fit your world view.

[0815test]

We don't know what OP said (or rather, mumbled out) about her body. From what OP states, it's reasonable to infer that they said "Your body is in my personal space, you're making me uncomfortable" or something to that effect. And then they got in trouble for that, which seems quite indefensible!

[pwinnski]

> my confused reply, which I didn't mean to say it loud but being exhausted it slipped part my filter and I mumbled it out loud, was cited as sexual harassment

Whatever he said, he immediately apologized for it, and still to this day blames fatigue and confusion and says he didn't mean to say it out loud. So no, it is completely unreasonable to infer anything other than an inappropriate comment.

There is not a real world in which people are making innocent statements innocently and losing their jobs. That is a fantasy world that exists in the fever dreams of men who have trouble treating women as people.

[0815test]

That depends on what you mean by "inappropriate", of course. People say all sorts of things they don't mean to when they're made uncomfortable by something, and the line between "discomfort", "confusion" and "fatigue" is itself quite fuzzy. And yes, they apologized for it immediately afterwards - but apologies themselves can be strategically unwise, and leave one open to manipulative behavior in response to a perceived display of weakness. Their wife certainly didn't seem to think OP's behavior was inappropriate in the way you're implying, and she'd obviously care if it was!

All in all, I'm not sure why you seem to be willfully ignoring the whole part where OP explains what prompted their remark (whatever that might have been) in the first place; whether intentional or not, it seems that a somewhat "inappropriate" situation had already occurred by that time.

[philonoist]

"apologized either way."

You have( maybe or maybe not purposefully) left out "either way" which means it need not be inappropriate by intention. Even then sadly, an apology is not enough for some weird concocted subjective self victimization and the eyes of OP's woman start putting off fire until the life of the OP gets totally ruined.

"brought up her ass to me", "She shook her ass at me despite us having no real relationship","but they are all adults who don't behave like this to me." are as clear as sunny day.

Sounds like that stupid woman came up to him and tried to seduce, sexually harass, or pull a cheap attention mongering stunt in the name of "part of fun time at office". You may find this ridiculous but there are women who do this. I have had to push a woman off of me in not so tightly packed elevator while she was "having fun" with her butt rubbing my genitals. She in fact, laugh out loud explaining this experience with colleagues in the office as 'first time an anal' and her boyfriend later.

I was mortified and violated, fresh in the memory till date, but hey! since I am a guy, I am some closet monster prowling on women with a magical magnetic genital, who has total disregard to my sweat and blood to barely hope to lead a dignified life, have intact family and be a dedicated earner of higher promotions. Nobody should care if all of these require just one domino to start falling with, eh? Everybody can just paint me defensive and accept whatever non-sense as consequences of "my" acts.

We must just believe and be at mercy of these women or risk all that we earned if we speak up against in these situations. In the mean time, those who did, just deny deny deny and gas-light them and brush them of as liar who genetically are incapable to treat women as fellow humans.

The problem with us human beings is we have ingrained the gynocentric justice system in our minds where perhaps the women can never be wrong at all. Its always the guy's fault. Firstly we start by dismissing their experiences In the mean time, we start assigning them some "responsibility" they didn't need to burden themselves with in this misandrist new world. This is insulting to men and greatest injustice to other women as well.

The OP's situation is also the time where people in same page say acceptable light-hearted comments which otherwise would be inappropriate or lewd. These comments are passed by women themselves routinely and accepted very well by bosses. For I have seen women spank a guy's arse and praise "sexy!" in stationary rooms or pull tie and ask something work related with innuendos, etc. I mean obviously an action gets a reaction, however confused or exhausted it may be. In fact, many do have a slip of tongue in exhaustion, how so ever we press hard to deny them of their own life experiences. We should not treat men like they don't matter, they are constantly doubted, they are not valued and be dismissed just because the opposite party in the situation happens to be a woman.

There should be laws that outright fire these women with a code of conduct stamp as sexual harasser. That is the supposed real world we should give women to train them to treat men with respect and stop gas-lighting them.

[pwinnski]

I was addressing the commenter, whose life was not totally ruined. In fact, it seems he didn't lose his job or face any consequences other than a conversation with HR, if that. You are clearly talking about a completely unrelated conversation and projecting quite a bit here.

You describe being sexually harassed in the workplace, and you had every reason to complain to HR yourself. I hope you did so, and I further hope you weren't dismissed when you did so--which does unfortunately sometimes happen.

As for the rest, yes, bad actors exist in some workplaces. Don't be one of them, try to handle those you encounter professionally, and maybe ask yourself: why the women you see acting badly prompt you to throw around ridiculous terms like "gynocentric justice system" while the men you see acting badly don't seem to register at all.

[philonoist]

The more I read your posts, the more it feels obvious for guys to facepalm and continue to defend their dignity and stop mentoring. Time has come now to make you contemplate on why bad supporters like you are more dangerous than bad actors. I beg you to stop being one of them.

No where did he say he made an inappropriate comment except for your premature judgemental attitude. Are we so incapable of being more nuanced to differentiate awkward[1] from sexual comments? Sure they both come under 'inappropriate' but not all inappropriate comments deserve taking up with HR. And only matured people understand that.

You got to get your facts right first of all. "I was let go due to "financial reasons" because a co-worker brought up her ass" [0]

He was fired. The company was so coward that it couldn't even come forward and say what he was fired for, had it been truly about - sexual harassment. That means the company didn't follow due procedure just like mine. Now I know what feminists typically say - that it is us men who should run pillar to post and fight against big powerful corporates in the courts, while make themselves unemployed, potentially unemployable and leave their own families starved.

Its rarely lucky that he got benefit of doubt in another company to join when he searched without protest and and his female boss knew how he fell pray to the woman's scheming[1]. But most don't. Just look at #metoo accused guys who said more benign and non-sexual things. Most of them didn't get another job for far too long and are in the wait. Many got divorces because running a one sided family becomes unsustainable.

The depressing problem with our society is it don't recognize that a guy does feel the psychological trauma, emotional and mental distress because of not just us twisting his facts, but his friend and family circle that leave him in lurch usually because they don't want to associate even with a criminal accused. All because he is a guy. Your comment is a live example of it.

Not only do we not recognize the gravity of such stupid misuse of power, but gaslight him as not seeing "his" problems. We just keep parroting its all his fault. This is the textbook example of victim blaming.

And how is unconsented twerking of arse somehow acceptable when unconsented exhibition of penis is called sexual harassment? On top of that, we encourage women to complain against him?

"Dude, you have a problem. You clearly cannot see it, but you have a problem. I'm not making assumptions based on anything but your own words, and in your own words, you have a problem. Maybe less of a problem than you once did, but still a problem."

You said its his problem four times without backing up any of it. That speaks volumes about you than me and further proves my point of "gynocentric justice". I don't understand from where you get such magical clues that it doesn't seem to register men acting badly in me. That's totally straw man argument and doesn't even deserve a dignified reply.

He clarifies - "but it wasn't in any way sexually suggestive"[2]

So you cannot even imagine something even in alternate world that a sexual act of her's can't be replied with something awkward and without involving any sexually suggestive in it? Now we doubt the one who speak up and try be honest, huh?

If this is not ruining, then I guess you have ruined it for women having undergone sexual harassment for real and its just nothing as much to avoid the contradiction in your own belief.

The OP's life is never representative of the bigger picture. In fact, #metoo movement is, where the complaint was in same intensity of acts and the consequences were overkill.

> You describe being sexually harassed in the workplace, and you had every reason to complain to HR yourself. I hope you did so, and I further hope you weren't dismissed when you did so--which does unfortunately sometimes happen.

Yes I did complain to HR, a woman. She smirked and said that it will be immediately dealt with. I was not followed up what happened finally. I was purposefully kept in the dark. The accused continued the job as if nothing happened. Nothing happened. The HR begrudged me for taking it to her higher ups. She instead spread that incident as a rumour to the whole department( I work in) that I won't whine and complain for such a lucky chance and the accused got support of her female friends that it was nothing wrong among her female friends. Some of them who listened to HR tried to implicate me as a lech pulling a victim card.

My location of the office: New York. Yeah, New York!

He clarifies in another comment[2] - "People who know me think this is funny, because they know me and how easily mortified I get when I say something I don't intend to."

So people who know him find it funny and people who don't know him like you find it unbelievable, huh!

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19969673 [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19975794 [2]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19975728

[0815test]

I understand where you're coming from, but still, please don't blame women at large for manipulative/narcissistic/sociopathic behavior that a minority in both genders, without distinction, might engage in. This stuff is just as bad no matter if it's coming from women or from "male sexist pigs".

[microwavecamera]

That's a straw man argument built on pure conjecture. We're all educated adults here, that not going work.