[drdeca]

> For me, guilt/shame is something to be overcome, not used as a tool.

Wow, I think I quite strongly disagree.

What do you think it exists _for_ ?

It is good for society that people have the capacity for guilt and shame.

If we did not, I cannot see any other recourse other than fear!

[rxhernandez]

Your argument that it exists _for_ anything is a bit hollow. What do superstitions exist _for_? What does religion exist _for_? What does the shame of being on the LGBTQ spectrum exist _for_? What does fat shaming exist _for_?

That something exists and that people are using it doesn't at all mean that the use is still valid, that it ever was valid, or that there are not much more fruitful alternatives.

Moreover your argument that you need guilt and shame to have a good society is the same sort of argument that Christians use against atheists and their lack of religion. The reason I don't go raise hell is simply because helping other people is what has been burned into my mind as a child. I don't hand a homeless person money because I'm worried about the shame of not doing it, nor do I feel any real happiness from when I do it; I do it because I believe it is my duty (which is the same reason I rarely miss deadlines).

[drdeca]

> what has been burned into my mind as a child

How was this done?

[rxhernandez]

With my father doing the complete opposite by being abusive as possible without physically touching me.

[drdeca]

:( I’m sorry to hear that,

I don’t mean to suggest that shame/guilt aren’t sometimes (often?) overused.

I just think that attempting to entirely excise them is a mistake (and that they are at times useful in moderation for certain things).

[hobs]

Love, kindness, empathy, etc. You dont have to build your society as a goad to make people do what you want.

[luckylion]

Do you know of any example of societies that were based on love, kindness, empathy and so on, and were stable for a prolonged time?

[dmix]

You’ve tapped on the fallacy of assuming it’s all about shame. Accomplishment is very rewarding to plenty of people.

[systemizer]

Okay, so shame exists because it is good for a society that is built on shame? I don't mean to be derogatory in anyway, but the fact something is stabilizing doesn't mean it is good. I believe there are better ways to build relationships with others

[ncallaway]

> Okay, so shame exists because it is good for a society that is built on shame?

I think so, yes.

Evolutionarily, as humans, social inclusion was incredibly important. Being removed from a tribe was likely a death sentence. As such, we have some very strong social drivers like shame and embarrassment that people feel quite keenly.

But these social drivers caused people to do things that were good for society. You felt shame if you didn't contribute to hunting or gathering, cooking, planting and harvesting, building structures, raising children, or other crucial societal factors.

I think you're on pretty solid ground to say that shame and embarrassment go a long way toward the foundation of the society we have now.

I do think shame and embarrassment are useful tools that we shouldn't want to get rid of entirely. That being said, I think it's totally fair to question whether our current-society over-relies on these kinds of things, and asking if it would be healthier to scale them back rather than expand them.

[BurningFrog]

I think OP is saying you should feel guilt and shame if you treat others badly, steal or break their stuff, murder or rape them etc.

You were probably thinking of completely different contexts.

[coldtea]

>Okay, so shame exists because it is good for a society that is built on shame?

Yes. Shame exists because it gave some evolutionary benefits to the primates who had it, like being able to live in a society and cooperate and don't cheat/kill/fuck over each other as much (if you think we do bad stuff too much, wait till you see what we can do without shame).

>I believe there are better ways to build relationships with others

The problem is that made-up (e.g. of our own making, requiring us to think about them and follow them rationally), not instinctual, ways, are none effective at all compared to innate, evolutionary, feelings like shame...

[systemizer]

Good points! I agree the feeling of shame is pre-reflective. At the same time, I think we have the possibility of comporting ourselves in a way-of-being that better copes with shame. For me, By reflectively using your pre-reflective feeling of shame as a tool for productivity feels wrong (and this is personal and I don't have the best words right now to expound that feeling)

[coldtea]

>* For me, By reflectively using your pre-reflective feeling of shame as a tool for productivity feels wrong*

Well, with that I agree.

For one, it cheapens the quality and utility of shame.

Following this to the end, could end up with cheating on one's spouse or killing someone feeling only as bad as checking your Facebook page when you should be working...

[Erlich_Bachman]

It sounds like you are basing your life on negative emotions only. Just so you know, there is another universe out there, based on positive ones.

[drdeca]

By “recourse” I meant “recourse for bad behavior”.

Society must have a way to discourage bad behavior, not only encourage good behavior.