[holy_city]

Speaking anecdotally (which maybe the dataset backs up?) - yes.

Immigration bureaucracy has slowed to a crawl, processes that used to take 6 weeks are now taking 6 months. It's unfortunate, since the news only talks about the administration's policies on undocumented immigrants and asylum seekers, not how the administration is dragging their feet on _all_ immigration processes.

It's just not worth it to sponsor an H-1B, especially if you're a medium/small sized company. Costs too much time and money.

[morsmodr]

I am a front-end developer on an H1 visa. There is a reason for the slowdown. A lot of companies, Indian IT or consultancy firms in the US are abusing the H1 visa process. They use lawyers and high sounding words to make roles such as functional/manual tester or other non-critical non-STEM roles to sound as technical STEM based roles. IMHO these roles can be easily done by American locals without STEM or technical background, if they have an opportunity. A bit of process and business training is enough. Whether they do get into such roles or not is a different ball game altogether. But the premise of H1 is to provide visa for people with skills that the American market doesn't have. This process is easy to abuse because people in the administration are not tech savvy. Until people from tech in the US decide to take part in governance, there is not much that can be done besides slowing the process a bit so that current people who work at USCIS have the time to gauge applications in a fair way.

[Tyrek]

I feel like there's a misreading of the premise of the H-1B program here. If you'll refer to the USCIS website here [0], you'll note that the main prerequisites for the H-1B visa are a) Educated or Licensed b) Paid on par to American workers c) Not impacting the pay of American workers

Upon review, it's apparent that the 'visa for people with skills that the American market doesn't have' argument doesn't fly - the requirements only establish that the visa holder be competitive with Americans. You might be thinking of the 'extraordinary ability' category of visas, which are O-series (instead of the H-series of H-1Bs).

I'm also unclear on your criticism of consultancies - there's no criteria for the job to be STEM in nature, and I don't think it's an extraordinary view to hold that other fields may be technical/specialized. Fundamentally, very very few employees are irreplaceable (for good reason) by someone with sufficient motivation/training.

In defense of H-1 visa holders (especially fresh grads), I'd argue that if you outcompete locals (on even salary conditions) through fairly rigorous recruitment processes, overcoming the lack of local network and cultural/language barriers and survive the lottery cull, then the position has been earned. [1].

Finally, your argument about 'having the time to gauge applications' is absurd. Either the process was working before, or it wasn't. If the program was compliant prior, then extending processing times is fundamentally a violation of due process, and effectively re-interpreting existing law.

[0] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... [1] Fair disclosure, this was my path

[munk-a]

It's that (c) that I really take issue with, H-1B workers tend to be paid below par and their immigration status being tied to employment greatly lowers their ability to self-advocate. I also (cynical opinion incoming) think that companies target cultures with less emphasis on self-worth when bringing people in on these. I think people should absolutely be able to immigrate on a fair and just basis but I really dislike H-1Bs due to the impact that process has on the immigrant and those around them - I'd rather we all came looking for employment as equals.

[jogjayr]

> their immigration status being tied to employment greatly lowers their ability to self-advocate

H1B holders are free to change employers, but the new employer has to apply for a new visa (not subject to the cap). I've changed my job 3 times on an H1B, always for a better role and more pay.

[pandaman]

It is true for the H1B holders with the visas under 6 years. However there is a whole class of H1Bs who had been in status for longer. They manage to extend their status beyond 6 years based on approved I-140 and the fact that they cannot apply for a Green Card because of the country limit. For these people the H1B is the only available legal status and it entirely depends on the I-140, which belongs to the employer.

Theoretically, nothing prevents them from changing jobs just like with a <6 y.o. H1B. Also, theoretically, nothing prevents the old employer from recalling the I-140. In such a case there are, probably, ways to still retain legal status but they are far more complicated than filing for a new H1B.

[jogjayr]

> Also, theoretically, nothing prevents the old employer from recalling the I-140

Also untrue. Employers can only revoke I-140s within the first 6 months after approval. After that, they can't do anything if the employee decides to leave.

[sjg007]

I’m paid below H1Bs at my company in the same job title and I’m a us citizen. So it all depends... I have a lot of work life flexibility in my job though. So maybe it evens out!

[morsmodr]

By 'not have' I meant 'shortage' of people. Like literal shortage because there aren't enough graduates. I am wrong though on expecting an H1 role to have a STEM requirement. But the consultancies I talk about pay employees under H1 visa below market value. Same goes for the WITCH companies.

The challenge with finding out whether the process was working before is inherently difficult is what I think. Whom is it working for? And for whom it isn't? Again I could be wrong

[johntitor1]

Just curious, isn't the purpose of outsourcing not only to import workers with unavailable talent but also to import workers when there's a shortage of local workers?

How does it apply to tech?

[holy_city]

They altered the rules for the H-1B visa program to deal with abuses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andyjsemotiuk/2019/01/02/recent...

The slowdown has nothing to do with H-1B abuses or exploitation. Nor is it because the administration "isn't tech savvy."

It's because the current administration was elected with a mandate from their base to stem immigration in all forms. They do not want more immigrants in this country, and are doing everything they can to prevent more people from coming here, staying here, or being allowed to stay here.

[raincom]

I think that's where USCIS is telling employers to prove that the occupation that a company tries to fill, is indeed a "specialty occupation".

Right now, USCIS is not forcing established American companies (FAANG, Microsoft, etc) to prove "specialty occupation". There is a reason for it: these big companies can take USCIS to federal courts, thereby curtailing the discretion of USCIS. So, USCIS is going after feeder companies: staffing companies (body shops); outsourcing comnpanies (WITCH and MNC consultancies like Capgemini, Deloitte).

One can turn any job into a specialty occupation with a four-page description of buzz words.

[redindian75]

>But the premise of H1 is to provide visa for people with skills that the American market doesn't have.

how does that square with

>I am a front-end developer on an H1 visa.

So let me get this straight, other immigrant's jobs can be easily done by locals with minimal training, hence it is a scam. BUT your 'front-end skills' are so unique that no other American can do it?

[outworlder]

> So let me get this straight, other immigrant's jobs can be easily done by locals with minimal training, hence it is a scam. BUT your 'front-end skills' are so unique that no other American can do it?

His _position_ may require more than _minimal_ training. We don't know as we haven't seen the application.

[morsmodr]

By 'not have' I meant 'shortage' of people. Like literal shortage because there aren't enough graduates. The market might demand say 10,000 people per year but only 3k-4k are present. This situation is what I was trying to explain. I am not saying any other immigrant skill besides mine is easy to train. A person working in Big 3 consulting firm and providing strategy consulting to clients also has skills which are in demand but the existing populace just doesn't have enough MBAs or people with post-grad (that is the requirement for strategy consulting for the most part)

[raincom]

USCIS is delaying every immigration application--not just H1b stuff. Even though there is no explicit policy to delay applications, I heard officers are told to delay. Since there is no backlash, it is going to be like that for a while.

[Bhilai]

Genuinely curious: Why don't the applicants give up and go back to their home countries ? H1B processing is very slow, Green Cards are taking decades, so is it still worth it ?

[giobox]

America pays its engineers really pretty well by global standards, even outside the bay. While this continues to be true I think many will think twice about returning, even if they like to talk about it.

Even among countries that are often assumed to have broadly similar standards of living by most people (UK is example I am most familiar with), those countries often pay their engineers substantially less. Many of my British colleagues earn very _substantially_ less doing the same job for the same company in the UK as an equivalent US worker.

Of course money isn’t everything, but it’s not like quality of life in California is completely terrible either for a lot of people...

Also when we talk about long waits for Green Cards, we really mean for the large body of Indian technology workers, broadly speaking. For other nationalities the wait is typically a year or less (for those unaware there are effectively country based quotas for green cards). The gap in earning potential is even larger still in the Indian example vs my earlier UK one, so again I’m not surprised few actually move back.

Finally many of these visa workers have had to battle their way to a job. Unlike a US citizen, they’ve had to brave a complex, often uncertain immigration process, finding a job in a foreign country in which they may have no experience, no network etc. If you put in all that effort, it’s maybe not surprising you want to hang around to get the eventual prize.

[Bhilai]

> Also when we talk about long waits for Green Cards, we really mean for the large body of Indian technology workers, broadly speaking. For other nationalities the wait is typically a year or less (for those unaware there are effectively country based quotas for green cards). The gap in earning potential is even larger still in the Indian example vs my earlier UK one, so again I’m not surprised few actually move back.

From what I know, American based tech companies pay good salaries in countries like India as well. These are of course adjusted to cost of living, which is significantly lower. I don't think it's realistic to be working in a tech company in India and expecting silicon valley salary but the salaries people usually get is generally good enough for that region.

[giobox]

I’m not arguing that one should expect the same pay everywhere. It’s simply my observation America typically pays engineers well, and much more than the two countries I cited in typical software company roles.

In the countries I have direct experience of, I would however argue the pay differential can be significant beyond just cost of living adjustments though.

[Tyrek]

A reasonable portion of H-1Bs are from students who graduated domestically (within the US) and found jobs in the US. Their degrees might not have the brand name recognition back home, they might not want to go home for various reasons, etc.

[amrx431]

And loans. It is impossible to repay a US school loan with an Indian or Chinese salary.

[kelnos]

I think some are indeed going back.

Others have fallen prey to the sunk-cost fallacy ("I've been waiting for 10+ years; it'll feel like I waste if I give up now").

And still others value the ability to work in the US over other countries (though I would judge that value to have decreased in the past couple years).

Some will just still stop at nothing to eventually be able to hold a US passport, especially if they come from a country where their own passport is much less useful internationally.

And I imagine some have also settled down and had kids in the time they've been here, waiting, and don't want to uproot their family.

[outworlder]

> Green Cards are taking decades

This is only for certain countries, by the way.

> Why don't the applicants give up and go back to their home countries ?

Have you got any experience in moving to another country? Do you have family?

So you spend years away from your country, getting promoted at work, kid at an american school (speaking English every day, with his american friends), wife going to an university or working(after enduring all the initial difficulties acclimating), for you to suddenly say: "meh, let's throw everything away and go back". Try that and let us know how that goes. Maybe if you are young and single.

Now, if you ask me, should people still try to come, given the current political climate? I am not sure. It's a wonderful country and the allure of the Bay Area is too great, if you are in IT. But the immigration system makes absolutely zero sense and is very demeaning. You need a lot of mental fortitude to endure it – even more so if you are from one of the countries with queues. Make sure you and your family can deal with the uncertainty, for years.

[tholman]

The Green Card process has definitely slowed down. I recently physically lost mine (with my whole wallet) and the process to get a second card printed, again, I've been approved and had it for years... is 2 to 13 (not a typo) months. Stuck, unable to leave the country until then, lest they not let me back in again.

[dhruvrrp]

If you talk to H1B people in the bay a lot of them are in the planning stage to go back to their home country/countries with better immigration laws (Canada, some European countries).

But in the end giving up that valley $$$ is not easy for everyone.

[throwaway082729]

I'm strongly considering that. 17 years in the US, $550k in annual pay, $750k+ in taxes paid in the last 15 years, American-born kid but I still don't have the freedom to switch jobs at ease or even take a break between jobs, start my own business or work at a small startup, take part-time jobs from advising companies, rent my place out on Airbnb, etc. My wife, who teaches special needs kids, cannot work soon after H4-EAD is revoked. Trump has made some noise about fixing immigration for high-skilled immigrants but no progress on that and no one else seems to care. Thinking of moving to Canada or Australia or back to my home country. The other option is to start a SuperPac and raise $1000 from every Indian stuck in GC limbo.

[raincom]

Why have not you applied for EB-5 regional centers, since you have that kind of money? You would have green card by now, had you taken that route. Regional center eb-5 requires $500k. Otherwise, $1M with the proof that 10 Americans are employed.

[YukonMoose]

This process is a bit of a scammy to say the least. I can understand why people would want nothing to do with it. Apart from the suit of sleazy law firms that offer to “help”,similar to other visas the us applies a quota per nationality, with waiting times of many years depending on where you are from. Unless you have $500k to throw away it is not a viable option as far as I could see.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/real-estate-developers-look-to-...

[raincom]

For people born in certain countries like China, it is indeed a bad deal, due to per-country quota. Yes, there are scams. A Chinese attorney couple in California got busted.

USCIS mandates that the investment (in this case, $500K) should be at risk.

However, if one has $1M to invest and create 10 jobs for two years, this pipeline hasn't exhausted per-country quota as yet. The GP makes enough money to go through this route. Buy a failing business in some area, run it for a loss and get the green card. Here, one doesn't need to deal with sleazy lawyers.

$7.25 per hr is the min wage in some states. $20K per year per job. 10 jobs per year = $200K. Run it until conditions are removed for the green card. Due to delays in gc processing, add one more year to 2 years conditional period. So, 3 years in total. The total cost: $200K * 3 = $600K.

[throwaway082729]

I don't want to risk $500k on this. Would rather go back and invest it in my home country. It's also a scam and I don't want to get my GC this way.

[sjg007]

SuperPac is to run ads on TV/FB etc... you can’t make direct campaign contributions as foreign nationals. As a lobby though it is a good idea and you’d probably get backing from Tata etc...

[mastox]

I've had one co-worker give up on the US system, and is now working remote from the companies' Toronto office.

[amrx431]

> working remote from the companies' Toronto office

Eh. Remote from office? How does that work?

[mastox]

The company has a US office and a Toronto office, but disjoint teams. He is still part of the US team, working remote (i.e. given a desk) in the Toronto office.

[olcor]

I’m going back home this month. There is literally no point living here, given the ridiculous wait times for having a stable life. Even after the “battle” is done, life here, tbh, isn’t all that awesome outside of work. I can always be a visitor.

[munk-a]

I brain-drained myself out of the US[1] and I applaud your decision. I think we need to vote with our feet on the topic of a sane and respectful immigration system. I hope you do well and make lots of cash - and end up paying absolutely none of that to the country that made your life so difficult in taxes.

[1] I was natural born so it was entirely by choice. Specifically, my wife was not in the US and we compared what it would take to get me into her country vs. her into mine and it was a difference of... starkness, thousands of dollars and the possibility of her being unable to work for a period.

[yardie]

We immigrated back. You made the right call. I’m a US citizen and my spouse is still waiting on her GC and at this point we’re seriously debating packing up and moving. Even with the parole they give you ominous warnings about traveling without the green card. When we submitted her application we were told 6 months. That has been extended to 18 and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s 36.

[munk-a]

I'm sorry for your situation. Life already has enough complications - immigration doesn't need to help supply more issues.

Hopefully it all works out!

[throwawaymjabba]

I did. I threw away everything and came back to India within the last 6 months.

I was in US for 6.5 years working for an Indian company. My employer filed for my green card and it got denied in the first step (see 1 below). Employer appealed and it got approved after 3-4 months. Completed 2nd stage without issues and filed for visa extension. Got RFE from USCIS (see 2 below). Instead of 15 days, it got delayed for another 3.5 months. I couldn't renew my driving license since my previous visa expired by now (see 3 below) and had to rely on Uber/Lyft for 3 months. Finally got my visa approved for 3 more years.

I had enough of this process by now. Even before the green card application denial, I had a tough time living in US (see 4 below). H1B people (who did everything by the book) were always scared to go back to India ever since Trump came to power. There were stories of people going to India for vacation and then can't come back, being grilled at port of entry in US airports for 1 hour before they let you in etc. Thankfully, I never experienced any of that expect for the 'random' checks from TSA which always used to happen to me.

I stayed in US for 1 more month after my visa extension got approved. I gave a 2 weeks notice to my employer, ended up working for another 1-2 weeks while my customer tried in vain for options to allow me work from India, packed up everything and came back. The pain stopped just like that. I am yet to experience it even though life in India is harder than in US and I haven't even started looking for a job yet.

Notes:

1. Green card usually has 3 steps I believe, first 2 gets completed in 1 year or so, 3rd stage gets completed after 10-20 years for Indians. If some reports are to be believed, it takes 150 years for eb2 and 50 years for eb3 Indians. Once we complete 6 years on h1b, we have to file for a green card if we wish to continue in US. Once the first 2 stages of GC are approved, we can apply for visa extension.

2. Request for Extension is when USCIS asks for more evidence to show that I am in speciality occupation. In my case, the document I received from USCIS looked like a copy paste. They had my employer name as one of Target/Walmart/Home Depot/Bed Bath & Beyond. They wanted me to prove that my work require a bachelors degree. It was a given that if you are an Indian working for an Indian company, you get an RFE during 2017-2018.

3. We are allowed to work for upto 240 days (forgot actual number) while an application for visa extension is pending. Driving license in some states is tied to visa with a max of 2 years. It is strange that the state government wouldn't let me drive, but continued to tax me even for the income I earned in India during this period. My employer paid for my Uber, but I hated it. I was like that lady in a Black Mirror episode where everyone gets a rating and trying too hard to please others. I especially hated the need for small talk because I was really miserable. I got so upset when my rating went down the first time (most likely because I told the driver I would tip in app after seeing his note that he accepts tip with a tip jar and some cash), I wrote to Uber customer care asking for refund of the tip which they did! My rating dropped from 4.9 to 4.74 during the first 2 weeks and then came back up to 4.9 once I started tipping in cash.

4. I still don't know what was the psychology behind me wanting to go back to India. I experienced a lot of emotional pain pretty much every day from the 2nd or 3rd year. I used to drive to work with tears in my eyes. At some point, I noticed that I get tears automatically while I am waiting at a particular traffic signal or if I walk through a particular office entrance. Those tears stopped when I took a different route or entrance! I think this whole emotional pain thing probably has a lot to do with

a. being alone in a foreign country

b. the feeling that I had no control over my life because of h1b

c. the hate I used to see for h1bs in Reddit and comment sections of some news sites

[nraynaud]

Of course there are explicit policies, here is an example: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/11/18/2016-27...

[raincom]

Thanks. That's for EADs. USCIS is even delaying interviews on purpose without any written policy. That's what I mean.

[nraynaud]

yes, there are policies on positions, I have also heard of lies at the border by CBP officers (around I-20). The interview process for green card itself is also a delaying tactic.

[hammock]

Stats from the data

  Year...Employers...Approvals
  2019........22K..........76K
  2018........55K.........334K
  2017........49K.........373K

[demodddd]

is this the final list already?

[malshe]

I was talking to a few international masters students who can't find jobs in the US because increasingly companies can't sponsor H1-B. The immigration slowdown is across the board, even for EB1 green card applications. I think the wait time for EB1 is currently about 2 years and it is even more for Chinese and Indians.

[amrx431]

> I was talking to a few international masters students who can't find jobs in the US because increasingly companies can't sponsor H1-B

Which schools did they graduate from? My 9 friends went to do MS in US and all of them got jobs in the valley with H1-B sponsorship. Their success is tempting me also to try the masters. Although fun of studying in a US school and CS again is also very tempting.

[omegaworks]

For this reason it's critically important to push back when this administration claims to only care about illegality.

They are slow walking all immigrants, focusing the brunt of their enforcement activity on black and brown folks, up to and including turning people away from self-deportation processes if they present as white.

It is a coordinated effort to delay demographic shifts.

[kevin_thibedeau]

The US has no obligation to provide benefits and services to non-citizens. If the guest worker program wasn't being horribly abused it would be worthwhile. As it stands, H1-B needs a wholesale revision to serve its stated goals.

[omegaworks]

>The US has no obligation to provide benefits and services to non-citizens.

The conversation is not about about benefits and services to non-citizens, but about whether enforcement is being targeted at specific immigrant populations based on white supremacist ideologies. It is about the false, widely circulated talking-point that this administration simply seeks to push people toward legal pathways.

>If the guest worker program wasn't being horribly abused it would be worthwhile.

This is a claim that requires justification. Any tiered labor system that does not guarantee a level legal playing field for all workers is abusable.

[Mountain_Skies]

Causing demographic shifts isn't the stated purpose of the immigration system. No presidential candidate would ever run on replacing incumbent demographics with planetary demographics. Are you suggesting that demographic replacement should be the purpose of the US immigration system or the purpose of the immigration system of any country for that matter? To do so would invite an incredible backlash against all forms of immigration pretty much anywhere it was openly stated.

[munk-a]

This is flipping the parent poster on their head and then some. The immigration system is supposed to allow a fair and just way for new people to immigrate, _that's it_. There has been (among really stupid internet circles) this concept that demographic replacement is a thing we should all be running around waving our arms over. I believe simple pandering and greed (more than demographic replacement) is a motivation for the immigration law shifts we're seeing today but...

Wanting to avoid a demographic shift is an invalid reason to constraint immigration in my eyes, I find arguments like that to be heavily based in strongly bigoted opinions.

[patrickg_zill]

If you say "the State is electing itself a new people" then the demographic shift is more obviously anti-democratic, which it is. The people who voted are having their votes diluted...

[omegaworks]

>If you say "the State is electing itself a new people"

You're the only one saying that, though.

The state does not create people out of whole cloth.

You can only see immigration as anti-democratic when you see new immigrants as somehow inherently different than the inhabitants. When you discard any notion that they could be equal partners in building better lives here.

[patrickg_zill]

They are different!

They are from another country and bring with them their own views, traditions and culture... They don't get mind-wiped when they land on US soil.

[ralph84]

In fact the current immigration system in the US was explicitly sold to Americans at the time as one that would not cause a demographic shift.

[omegaworks]

Sold how, and at which time, specifically?

In 1882, when the first immigration law specifically called out Chinese people for exclusion?

Or today, when the internationally agreed upon framework for asylum is actively undermined by the current administration?

And what makes these sales just, fair, or even productive?

[ralph84]

The current immigration system in the US dates to 1965. There has been a massive demographic shift in the US since then. The politicians at the time said there wouldn't be.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=539139...