Genuinely curious: Why don't the applicants give up and go back to their home countries ? H1B processing is very slow, Green Cards are taking decades, so is it still worth it ?
America pays its engineers really pretty well by global standards, even outside the bay. While this continues to be true I think many will think twice about returning, even if they like to talk about it.
Even among countries that are often assumed to have broadly similar standards of living by most people (UK is example I am most familiar with), those countries often pay their engineers substantially less. Many of my British colleagues earn very _substantially_ less doing the same job for the same company in the UK as an equivalent US worker.
Of course money isn’t everything, but it’s not like quality of life in California is completely terrible either for a lot of people...
Also when we talk about long waits for Green Cards, we really mean for the large body of Indian technology workers, broadly speaking. For other nationalities the wait is typically a year or less (for those unaware there are effectively country based quotas for green cards). The gap in earning potential is even larger still in the Indian example vs my earlier UK one, so again I’m not surprised few actually move back.
Finally many of these visa workers have had to battle their way to a job. Unlike a US citizen, they’ve had to brave a complex, often uncertain immigration process, finding a job in a foreign country in which they may have no experience, no network etc. If you put in all that effort, it’s maybe not surprising you want to hang around to get the eventual prize.
> Also when we talk about long waits for Green Cards, we really mean for the large body of Indian technology workers, broadly speaking. For other nationalities the wait is typically a year or less (for those unaware there are effectively country based quotas for green cards). The gap in earning potential is even larger still in the Indian example vs my earlier UK one, so again I’m not surprised few actually move back.
From what I know, American based tech companies pay good salaries in countries like India as well. These are of course adjusted to cost of living, which is significantly lower. I don't think it's realistic to be working in a tech company in India and expecting silicon valley salary but the salaries people usually get is generally good enough for that region.
I’m not arguing that one should expect the same pay everywhere. It’s simply my observation America typically pays engineers well, and much more than the two countries I cited in typical software company roles.
In the countries I have direct experience of, I would however argue the pay differential can be significant beyond just cost of living adjustments though.
A reasonable portion of H-1Bs are from students who graduated domestically (within the US) and found jobs in the US. Their degrees might not have the brand name recognition back home, they might not want to go home for various reasons, etc.
Others have fallen prey to the sunk-cost fallacy ("I've been waiting for 10+ years; it'll feel like I waste if I give up now").
And still others value the ability to work in the US over other countries (though I would judge that value to have decreased in the past couple years).
Some will just still stop at nothing to eventually be able to hold a US passport, especially if they come from a country where their own passport is much less useful internationally.
And I imagine some have also settled down and had kids in the time they've been here, waiting, and don't want to uproot their family.
> Why don't the applicants give up and go back to their home countries ?
Have you got any experience in moving to another country? Do you have family?
So you spend years away from your country, getting promoted at work, kid at an american school (speaking English every day, with his american friends), wife going to an university or working(after enduring all the initial difficulties acclimating), for you to suddenly say: "meh, let's throw everything away and go back". Try that and let us know how that goes. Maybe if you are young and single.
Now, if you ask me, should people still try to come, given the current political climate? I am not sure. It's a wonderful country and the allure of the Bay Area is too great, if you are in IT. But the immigration system makes absolutely zero sense and is very demeaning. You need a lot of mental fortitude to endure it – even more so if you are from one of the countries with queues. Make sure you and your family can deal with the uncertainty, for years.
The Green Card process has definitely slowed down. I recently physically lost mine (with my whole wallet) and the process to get a second card printed, again, I've been approved and had it for years... is 2 to 13 (not a typo) months. Stuck, unable to leave the country until then, lest they not let me back in again.
If you talk to H1B people in the bay a lot of them are in the planning stage to go back to their home country/countries with better immigration laws (Canada, some European countries).
But in the end giving up that valley $$$ is not easy for everyone.
I'm strongly considering that. 17 years in the US, $550k in annual pay, $750k+ in taxes paid in the last 15 years, American-born kid but I still don't have the freedom to switch jobs at ease or even take a break between jobs, start my own business or work at a small startup, take part-time jobs from advising companies, rent my place out on Airbnb, etc. My wife, who teaches special needs kids, cannot work soon after H4-EAD is revoked. Trump has made some noise about fixing immigration for high-skilled immigrants but no progress on that and no one else seems to care. Thinking of moving to Canada or Australia or back to my home country. The other option is to start a SuperPac and raise $1000 from every Indian stuck in GC limbo.
Why have not you applied for EB-5 regional centers, since you have that kind of money? You would have green card by now, had you taken that route. Regional center eb-5 requires $500k. Otherwise, $1M with the proof that 10 Americans are employed.
This process is a bit of a scammy to say the least. I can understand why people would want nothing to do with it. Apart from the suit of sleazy law firms that offer to “help”,similar to other visas the us applies a quota per nationality, with waiting times of many years depending on where you are from. Unless you have $500k to throw away it is not a viable option as far as I could see.
For people born in certain countries like China, it is indeed a bad deal, due to per-country quota. Yes, there are scams. A Chinese attorney couple in California got busted.
USCIS mandates that the investment (in this case, $500K) should be at risk.
However, if one has $1M to invest and create 10 jobs for two years, this pipeline hasn't exhausted per-country quota as yet. The GP makes enough money to go through this route. Buy a failing business in some area, run it for a loss and get the green card. Here, one doesn't need to deal with sleazy lawyers.
$7.25 per hr is the min wage in some states. $20K per year per job. 10 jobs per year = $200K. Run it until conditions are removed for the green card. Due to delays in gc processing, add one more year to 2 years conditional period. So, 3 years in total. The total cost: $200K * 3 = $600K.
SuperPac is to run ads on TV/FB etc... you can’t make direct campaign contributions as foreign nationals. As a lobby though it is a good idea and you’d probably get backing from Tata etc...
The company has a US office and a Toronto office, but disjoint teams. He is still part of the US team, working remote (i.e. given a desk) in the Toronto office.
I’m going back home this month. There is literally no point living here, given the ridiculous wait times for having a stable life. Even after the “battle” is done, life here, tbh, isn’t all that awesome outside of work. I can always be a visitor.
I brain-drained myself out of the US[1] and I applaud your decision. I think we need to vote with our feet on the topic of a sane and respectful immigration system. I hope you do well and make lots of cash - and end up paying absolutely none of that to the country that made your life so difficult in taxes.
[1] I was natural born so it was entirely by choice. Specifically, my wife was not in the US and we compared what it would take to get me into her country vs. her into mine and it was a difference of... starkness, thousands of dollars and the possibility of her being unable to work for a period.
We immigrated back. You made the right call. I’m a US citizen and my spouse is still waiting on her GC and at this point we’re seriously debating packing up and moving. Even with the parole they give you ominous warnings about traveling without the green card. When we submitted her application we were told 6 months. That has been extended to 18 and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s 36.
I did. I threw away everything and came back to India within the last 6 months.
I was in US for 6.5 years working for an Indian company. My employer filed for my green card and it got denied in the first step (see 1 below). Employer appealed and it got approved after 3-4 months. Completed 2nd stage without issues and filed for visa extension. Got RFE from USCIS (see 2 below). Instead of 15 days, it got delayed for another 3.5 months. I couldn't renew my driving license since my previous visa expired by now (see 3 below) and had to rely on Uber/Lyft for 3 months. Finally got my visa approved for 3 more years.
I had enough of this process by now. Even before the green card application denial, I had a tough time living in US (see 4 below). H1B people (who did everything by the book) were always scared to go back to India ever since Trump came to power. There were stories of people going to India for vacation and then can't come back, being grilled at port of entry in US airports for 1 hour before they let you in etc. Thankfully, I never experienced any of that expect for the 'random' checks from TSA which always used to happen to me.
I stayed in US for 1 more month after my visa extension got approved. I gave a 2 weeks notice to my employer, ended up working for another 1-2 weeks while my customer tried in vain for options to allow me work from India, packed up everything and came back. The pain stopped just like that. I am yet to experience it even though life in India is harder than in US and I haven't even started looking for a job yet.
Notes:
1. Green card usually has 3 steps I believe, first 2 gets completed in 1 year or so, 3rd stage gets completed after 10-20 years for Indians. If some reports are to be believed, it takes 150 years for eb2 and 50 years for eb3 Indians. Once we complete 6 years on h1b, we have to file for a green card if we wish to continue in US. Once the first 2 stages of GC are approved, we can apply for visa extension.
2. Request for Extension is when USCIS asks for more evidence to show that I am in speciality occupation. In my case, the document I received from USCIS looked like a copy paste. They had my employer name as one of Target/Walmart/Home Depot/Bed Bath & Beyond. They wanted me to prove that my work require a bachelors degree. It was a given that if you are an Indian working for an Indian company, you get an RFE during 2017-2018.
3. We are allowed to work for upto 240 days (forgot actual number) while an application for visa extension is pending. Driving license in some states is tied to visa with a max of 2 years. It is strange that the state government wouldn't let me drive, but continued to tax me even for the income I earned in India during this period. My employer paid for my Uber, but I hated it. I was like that lady in a Black Mirror episode where everyone gets a rating and trying too hard to please others. I especially hated the need for small talk because I was really miserable. I got so upset when my rating went down the first time (most likely because I told the driver I would tip in app after seeing his note that he accepts tip with a tip jar and some cash), I wrote to Uber customer care asking for refund of the tip which they did! My rating dropped from 4.9 to 4.74 during the first 2 weeks and then came back up to 4.9 once I started tipping in cash.
4. I still don't know what was the psychology behind me wanting to go back to India. I experienced a lot of emotional pain pretty much every day from the 2nd or 3rd year. I used to drive to work with tears in my eyes. At some point, I noticed that I get tears automatically while I am waiting at a particular traffic signal or if I walk through a particular office entrance. Those tears stopped when I took a different route or entrance!
I think this whole emotional pain thing probably has a lot to do with
a. being alone in a foreign country
b. the feeling that I had no control over my life because of h1b
c. the hate I used to see for h1bs in Reddit and comment sections of some news sites
Even among countries that are often assumed to have broadly similar standards of living by most people (UK is example I am most familiar with), those countries often pay their engineers substantially less. Many of my British colleagues earn very _substantially_ less doing the same job for the same company in the UK as an equivalent US worker.
Of course money isn’t everything, but it’s not like quality of life in California is completely terrible either for a lot of people...
Also when we talk about long waits for Green Cards, we really mean for the large body of Indian technology workers, broadly speaking. For other nationalities the wait is typically a year or less (for those unaware there are effectively country based quotas for green cards). The gap in earning potential is even larger still in the Indian example vs my earlier UK one, so again I’m not surprised few actually move back.
Finally many of these visa workers have had to battle their way to a job. Unlike a US citizen, they’ve had to brave a complex, often uncertain immigration process, finding a job in a foreign country in which they may have no experience, no network etc. If you put in all that effort, it’s maybe not surprising you want to hang around to get the eventual prize.