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by thisisweirdok 2669 days ago
The Big Dig in Boston was originally estimated to cost $8 billion. People were upset about this.

There were multiple problems along the way. It ultimately ended up costing $22 billion. People were also upset about this.

At the end of the day? It was an awesome project. They completely buried a highway that cut through the city, and added a ton of green space downtown (The Greenway).

The city is better for it. Taxpayers would never have allowed it if they had their way.

We need a similar program to revitalize the MBTA. It should be done regardless of the cost. I will happily pay more real estate taxes and highway tolls for the rest of my life to support it.

7 comments

>At the end of the day? It was an awesome project.

That's not the problem people complained about though -- the project's eventual quality/utility.

The problem people complained about is the cost of the project -- and especially for overpaying for something that could be done for less.

And that (overpaying) is a big problem for several reasons:

1) The money could go to other projects to better the city.

2) The money could be spend on future maintenance of the Big Dig itself.

3) The past history of such costly projects (fat margins and corruption-driven extras) nips the public appeal and political will to build new infrastructure in the bud.

If the Big Dig could be had at 4B, or 8B as promised, or, heck, even 10-15, and ended up costing $22 billion, that's a huge problem -- regardless if it was cool once completed.

Especially if the completed project is only $8B cool, and not $22B cool, and the extra money went not in improving it, but in delays, corruption, and other BS.

Otherwise what you're saying is:

"If a project can be built the same for N, it doesn't matter if we pay 2xN or 3xN due to over-charging/corruption, as long as the project is useful".

As if the extra money don't come with lost project opportunities of their own...

Sure, I absolutely think better accountability needs to be in place — but people didn't want the project at $8bn either.

People complained before ground was even broken. Looking at the scope of the project in retrospect, as well as the known unknowns, I'm surprised anyone thought it would cost $8bn ($22bn seems too high, but I'm just an interested layman).

It is a great project and allowed the city to expand into places that were very inaccessible (south boston). Having a second tunnel to the airport is actually the best part in my opinion.

People here are VERY untrusting of any government projects because of this project. See the Olympic bid that was supposed to have all sorts of public sector improvements rejected (well who rejected who is another story)

But traffic on 93 (the tunneled highway) is back or worse than pre-upgrade levels (some of the worst traffic in the country here in Boston), the public transit promised as part of the project is finally being worked on (green line extension) but it all seems like its not enough. Housing prices in the Boston area are at SanFran/NYC levels.

We need more infrasturure in boston. We have good proposals (North-South rail link, south shore rail) but lack a governor /politicians who will be honest and tell people they need to pay for this stuff.

Public transit is so bad here that a running club raced one of the green line trolleys (I'll let you guess who wins)

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/01/04/race-pits-runne...

less constructively: taxpayers who complain about bad infrastructure but who don't want to pay taxes to fund better infrastructure can shut the fuck up.

please, <municipality>, take my money. build me a decent public transit system and provide high quality services.

How much money though?

It's impossible to pay for everything. The way you talk you want unlimited funds spent on public transportation - but then what happens to all the other expenses? Just don't fund them?

> but who don't want to pay taxes to fund better infrastructure can shut the fuck up.

Or maybe, they want limited funds spent. There is nothing at all wrong with that.

Can't speak for everyone, but the consensus here in Massachusetts feels like "I don't use the MBTA so I don't want to pay for it in taxes/tolls." (Surprise, we also have a massive congestion problem because our population increases 300% during the workweek).

It's the I got mine and fuck the rest mentality. People always ignore that infrastructure benefits everyone (and in this case public transit improvements are MASSIVE for the lower classes).

But is it $22 billion better?
Profoundly, yes. Downtown Boston was a dismal place when I was a kid. It was dark. The overheads sucked so, so hard.

I've worked downtown for years now and it's a pleasant place to be.

https://www.rosekennedygreenway.org/files/1515/2691/1827/ban...

Yes. Everything green here was once under a highway. It completelpely changed a major portion of the city and opened up routes for other parts of the city to become more developed.

  The Big Dig in Boston was originally estimated to cost $8 billion. 
No, $6 billion in 2006 dollars ($2.8 billion in 1982) per Wikipedia.

  It ultimately ended up costing $22 billion
$24 billion, according to the Boston Globe (10 July 2012), yielding a nice, round 300% in overruns.

  At the end of the day? It was an awesome project. 
Seriously! It's so nice when your "$6 billion" project gets $8.55 million in Federal funds that the locals don't even have to pay for.

The Big Dig cost almost triple what the entire Panama Canal project did (adjusted for inflation). There's nothing to be proud of there.

The difference between the $8.5M in Federal funds, and the $24B that the locals had to pay, is about $24B.
s/$8.55 million/$8.55 billion/
If you want to put the Panama Canal through Boston it's going to cost astronomically more than $24bn — the logistics (not to mention the requirements and processes of the time period) are entirely different.
How is that at all relevant?
The grandparent poster compared the cost of the big dig to the cost of the panama canal to in an attempt to show that the big dig was overly expensive.

This parent poster is pointing out the fallacy by hypothesizing that the Panama canal in Boston would be way more expensive than the Panama canal in Panama, thereby showing the error in the grandparent post's reasoning.

Agreed on the MBTA. However rather than build new lines (e.g. Green line extn) let's put in overhead electrification on the commuter rail and let Green line style trolleys go out to the all of the 'burbs inside 128.

Also, we have tolls on the tunnels & bridges around Boston for the locals, but those who live in southern NH (presumably avoiding MA taxes) and are pounding up and down 25 miles of I-93 every day don't pay anything. They probably don't even buy their gas in MA.

Put electronic tolling on I-93 & Route 3 just south of the NH line. That would raise funds for the MBTA and spread the cost to those actually using the roads.

I don't disagree. We should have a lot more streetcars and (everyone has their own priorities). Reducing traffic from the suburbs would be massive.

There's also a huge amount of inequality in Boston proper due to the removal of the elevated Orange Line (which is inadequately serviced by the Silver Line and other busses). The most used bus routes (which mostly serve Roxbury and Dorchester) should be converted.

Agree on the NH front too. I don't envy the people who commute from NH to Boston every day, but they should absolutely be tolled.

I think more radical traffic easing will need to happen eventually. Do we really need hundreds of thousands of people commuting in to sit in some cubicle downtown from 9-5? Shit no. I'm not sure what needs to happen there... reducing property taxes on business that shift their working hours or let their employees work from home X amount of days per week? I hate reducing corporate costs, but what else would convince them?

I think streetcars are the solution, they can co-exist on downtown streets with cars then have their own lines when there's space. Did you know there used to be a streetcar that ran from Medford Sq. to Stoneham Sq. through the fells?

There's little to be gained by politicians saber-rattling and telling people to not use cars when there are no practical alternatives. If you don't live within the inner 1-2 city ring around Boston and you're not on the commuter rail, you have no choice but to drive.

> If you don't live within the inner 1-2 city ring around Boston and you're not on the commuter rail, you have no choice but to drive.

Right, but how many people are driving who live within that ring? Just eliminating those commuters would likely solve the congestion issues...

I don't think that many are. Most people I know who live within ~3 miles use the T, bike, walk, bus or even rollerblade! (parking is expensive in the city). It's the middle to outer 'burbs that have to drive (unless you live on the commuter rail).

Interestingly, plenty of people who live in towns on the commuter rail do use it, but they all complain about packed trains, crappy service when it snows and of course if you miss one, you're waiting another hour for the next.

I'm super happy that you are happy.

I'm less than sanguine about the fact that you and your people compel others to bear the burden of your personal value choices.

As well as paying for the burden of the corruption involved in Bostonian construction projects that (at least) doubled the cost of what it should have gone for.

>As well as paying for the burden of the corruption involved in Bostonian construction projects that (at least) doubled the cost of what it should have gone for

Is there evidence of this? Everyone says it but it always seems extreme (Seriously? $11bn to corruption?). I think there's credence to the fact that these projects often go to the lowest bidders, and in this instance there was a lot of rework done to compensate for cheap materials and poor workmanship.

>you and your people compel others to bear the burden of your personal value choices

New Hampshire is an hour away if you don't want a tax-supported public infrastructure.