[beerlord]

I don't hire Indians as freelancers or employees. Whenever I post a Freelance role, I can be sure that I will get at least 1-2 generic applications from Indians. Usually they are part of some cohort of other IT workers - so even if I accepted their offer, I would have no idea who my information was being exposed to or who the work was actually being done by.

Cheating and dishonesty is part of the culture, sadly - to the extent that parents will even climb school buildings to pass cheat notes to students during exams:

https://www.huffingtonpost.in/2015/03/19/en-masse-cheating-p...

Part of this is the bodyshop-encouraging nature of the H1B and other 'skilled' visas around the world. Limits should be placed to ensure that only 20% of all visa types can be given to any country, to avoid one country completely monopolising the visa type, and creating positive feedback effects (ie. Indians hiring other Indians or helping eachother game the system). Right now 76% of all H1B visas are taken by Indian workers which I think partly represents the scheme's failure.

[codesternews]

You can not generalise the whole India by reading one post. There are many Indians CEO's who are running the big companies and are well qualified.

Generalising the whole culture based on post is not right. You should give some one chance and some Indians are very talented and extremely hard working than anyone else you find.

Every business is gaming system even Amazon is gaming the system.

[beerlord]

Its not one post. Indians favour other Indians, to the exclusion of Americans and Europeans in general. I've seen it in IT, in retail, in trucking, in America and in other mass-immigration previously European societies (Australia). Even the largest companies (Infosys) engage in Visa fraud and discrimination:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/india...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/infosys-says-settles-whist...

Indian CEOs and managers are popular with boards because they will often ruthlessly pursue a corporate agenda without a brotherly spirit for (American) coworkers or citizens.

Americans and those descended from Europeans have been living in open, civil societies for thousands of years. Most of the world is not like that - in-group preference and close kinship rules. Outsiders will exploit our societal structure for their benefit, and we need to be at least aware of it, and penalise it as necessary. China's current corporate espionage effort (and the resultant trade war) is another example.

[elliekelly]

Have you ever been to India? Have you ever travelled anywhere outside of US/Canada/Western Europe?

Perhaps you ought to give it a try. You might be surprised at what you learn.

[beerlord]

My mother was there in the 80s (with my father, on a holiday) and complained about being groped and harassed by men, and the poor quality of food and water. No desire to ever visit or to have much to do with the people from there. The Indian men I've met in clubs and bars have been as unwanted as the job applicants.

[elliekelly]

People said the same thing to me about Morocco. And Cuba. And Bolivia. That I would be harassed by men and get sick from the food & water. Everything I had been told was wrong. They were some of my favorite places to travel because they were so different from anything I had experienced before.

[everybodyknows]

What you call "cheating and dishonesty" most of the world's population thinks of as nothing other than valuing the good of self and family ahead of that of strangers.

Adults who treat strangers as well as family are scarce indeed in this world, even within societies where the principle is universally inculcated in children by all of church, school and family.

If what you say of Indian culture is true -- well, such is the world norm.

[coldtea]

>What you call "cheating and dishonesty" most of the world's population thinks of as nothing other than valuing the good of self and family ahead of that of strangers.

And who said that that's noble?

If everybody did the same and had no moral limits of putting "the good of self and family ahead of that of strangers", then society would be a hellhole.

In fact, it would also come to bite them and their family in the ass too, because society would be a hellhole for them as well. Others can play the game of putting "the good of self and family ahead of that of strangers" as well, and to them its yourself and your family who are the strangers.

>Adults who treat strangers as well as family are scarce indeed in this world

You don't have to "treat strangers as well as family" to not cheat in exams.

You can still give your money to family and none to strangers, take care of family members in sickness and not strangers, protect family members when they're under attack but not strangers, give house and shelter to family members and not to strangers, etc.

Cheating exams and stealing someone's place (that they were actually worth it) doesn't imply you have to "treat strangers as well as family".

And how about caring about your family and kids enough to give them principles, and not make them cheaters, liars, cowards, and beggars who only value themselves and/or their family, and are otherwise useless weight to society?

[octokatt]

What you're saying makes sense.

What is unfortunate is that making moral decisions has a price. If you are trying to give the best life possible to your children, the price of honesty may be too high.

Instead, you may try to give your children a good enough life so they will be able to be the person you wish you could be. Children, here, can mean literal children, nieces, or close family friends who you want to be better than yourself.

[justtopost]

If your legacy to your children is dishonesty, you are giving them the largest possible handicap I can imagine.

[octokatt]

Just saw this. The legacy to your children is to sacrifice for them, be honest with them about what you did, and trust them to do better than you were able to do. Hopefully, the advantage you give them will be enough they can start making the system more fair.

It's ugly, but honor and honesty are things you need to be able to afford.

If your choice was to cheat on an arbitrary test or not be able to afford medicine for your child, it gets sticky.

[krageon]

Handicap to what? Certainly not material wealth. Morals aren't the first thing on your mind when you are trying to claw your way out of abject poverty.

[devonkim]

When taken to an extreme, self-preserving behaviors may be considered enablement - something actually harmful to the growth and ultimate potential of an individual in certain contexts. The ultra-wealthy dynasties to an extent practice both nepotism and meritocratic beliefs within their private lives. People rarely seem to think that coddled children (aside from perhaps literal royalty) are a net positive across cultures and history, for example. I have “people of means” relatives but they have not been a material factor in my successes (nor failures) and while they may help family to some extent, it is well understood how entangling money and family can ruin both things and the policy is to assist where it makes sense long-term but that earning your place is important for both family honor and sustainability. Lying / cheating has a time and place (primarily to save one’s family from peril or to correct injustices and wrongs against the family) but when it comes to measuring raw merit at least my family to my understanding, despite many old world tendencies, does not compromise here.

[deogeo]

Are you really equating dishonesty and valuing family over strangers? Do you believe there's no way to value family over strangers, without cheating and being dishonest?

[vonseel]

Sources, please. This sounds like bullshit to me.

[coldtea]

Sources for what? Parent didn't make some scientific or factual claim, just shared a point of view.

[llampx]

It is thanks to racist attitudes like this that I changed my name from an Indian one to an American-sounding one. And whaddaya know, my callbacks shot way up.

I'm not cheating anyone, just trying to do an honest job, but attitudes like this hold minorities back. Because when you say this about an entire nationality so freely, what do you think about blacks? What about Chinese? What about Mexicans? It is much more politically incorrect to hold stereotypical views of visible minorities who have fought and are fighting for their rights in American society. Indians? Too many people feel free to shit on them both on anonymous forums as well as in popular culture.

[throwaway082729]

I've the Indianest sounding name possible and I can get 10 jobs in a month. Maybe, just maybe, it's because of your skills and experience?

[llampx]

Good on you mate. Is it possible that we have had different experiences and have applied to different companies at different times? I've worked a lot in the Midwest in the medium-sized sector where there was a definite stereotype of Indians, and it was not a positive one.

Someone who is applying to Google in current_year is obviously in a different position. Not to mention other variables like a degree from Stanford etc, or being born in the US etc.

Obviously I am not saying that having an Americanized name is a requirement. I'm just saying that in the absence of other redeeming factors (I am no genius and have no patents to my name) it was a speedbump in the early selection process.

[Wintereise]

If you're willing to hustle/keep at it, yep, the name isn't much of a problem.

Having the Americanized name instantly lowers the difficulty though. Anecdotal, but I've seen this myself as well.

[Wintereise]

> It is thanks to racist attitudes like this that I changed my name from an Indian one to an American-sounding one. And whaddaya know, my callbacks shot way up.

Ah, brings tears to my eyes :)

It's amazing how true this is (applies to most minority groups). With my native name, a lot of companies don't even seem interested in sparing a second look.

With the Americanized version, I've had no problems at all landing interviews (and getting hired!).

[beerlord]

You should be doing this anyway as part of your integration into the culture. East Asians are smart - they name their children Jason Wu, Lucy Wang, Winson Ho from birth.

[dragonwriter]

> East Asians are smart - they name their children Jason Wu, Lucy Wang, Winson Ho from birth.

Most examples I know of that actually have both a westernized and a non-Westernized name, and quite a number that I've known who used the Westernized name primarily in public as children now use the non-Westernized name as adults.

(Also, a few that I know that use Westernized names have stereotypically Black Westernized names, which retains the advantage in parsing/pronunciation of Westernized names in general, but not the social advantages of stereotypically White names.)

[reaperducer]

Whenever I post a Freelance role, I can be sure that I will get at least 1-2 generic applications from Indians

One web site I worked with didn't even have to post a job. It had a public upload form for people to submit travel pictures. It was overwhelmed by photos of Indians holding their resumes.

I assume some clever person wrote a script for this.

[raincom]

Under the license raj/socialism, before Indian opened doors for liberalization, the only way for 99% of Indians to make a good living was to get a government job. As Indian population boomed, the competition for even sweeper jobs (which provide retirement, decent salary, even free housing) became fierce. So, the government started a new rule: every candidate who applies for any govt job has to pass 10th grade (these exams are conducted by every state government).

This has led to new minimum for anyone who wants a job: pass 10th grade exam. Hence, cheating. Why do insist on 10th grade for sweeper jobs? Why insist on 10th grade for army soldiers?

This is like in America, where every one insists on BA/BS. Then you see lots of shitty colleges who are making like bandits through loans backed by the government.

[beerlord]

Overpopulation. Too many people, not enough resources to support them. 600m Indians without proper access to water. Better access to contraception and changing social attitudes needed - the expectation that if you are impoverished you should have no children and save your money to improve your wellbeing, for example.

[raincom]

Empirically speaking, poor people (and the super wealthy) have more kids than the middle class do.

[stevezsa8]

If some people cheat, doesn't make it a universal trait of that culture.

Would you hire someone with an Indian name who was born and raised in Canada? Just trying to gauge the cut off.

[throwaway082729]

As an Indian, I completely agree. I don't consider anyone with Infosys, CTS, Wipro, etc on their resume. If they worked at startups in India, I'll consider them. I'm usually very skeptical of the technologies and skills they list on their resume. Most of them don't write any code and just do project management. They try to bullshit their way to full-time jobs to escape from the company that's holding them hostage in the US.