[doitLP]

Here’s a really cool video breaking down exactly how Jackie sets up his stunt-action-comedy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ

One thing that was particular interesting to me is how the setup always starts with him at an extreme disadvantage: no shoes, tied to a chair, hanging upside down, etc. I never noticed it before and it’s exactly what makes his action so enjoyable to watch.

(The YouTube Channel is called Every Frame a Painting and all the other videos are fascinating and very worth checking out.)

[jdietrich]

The lack of respect Chan gets in the west is a travesty IMO. His fight choreography is rooted in the traditions Chinese opera while being constantly fresh, playful and imaginative. He shows absolute technical mastery, but there is always a sense of child-like joy underpinning that mastery. The fact that his films are often regarded as frivolous and lightweight says something profound about what is valued in our cultural milieu.

[legostormtroopr]

> lack of respect Chan gets in the west

What? He's one of the biggest breakout stars from Hong Kong cinema in Western History. Is a household name, and starred in scores of movies during his career, including a 3 picture comedy/action movie series (Rush Hour), then went on to reboot a beloved 80's action story alongside the son of one of Hollywoods biggest names.

He also had his own cartoon for a while.

How the hell do you get "lack of respect" from his shining career?

[sirmarksalot]

I don't think most people truly appreciate how good his direction is, even if they enjoy watching him on screen. This oversight extends to Hollywood producers, who insist that his classic movies require "adaptation" before release in America. If Jackie Chan were truly respected, "Legend of the Drunken Master" would never have happened.

[nickik]

Hollywood is about money, its a mashine. Redoing movies has nothing to do with respect.

Movies of pretty much ever forign directors have been remade or rebooted.

So if you want to say that Hollywood has respect of nothing, then fine, bit it does not reflect on him at all.

[asdffdsa]

He's more of a caricature; following under the idea that Asian actors are always portrayed as comical Chan is someone you emulate when pretending to do some ridiculous silly kungfu fu move with your friends rather than appreciated as a seriously talented actor in his own right (anecdotally).

[idontpost]

> when pretending to do some ridiculous silly kungfu fu move with your friends

Maybe you just need better friends?

Your anecdotes certainly aren't universal.

[nickik]

That sounds like massive selection bias.

[thatoneuser]

And every time I shoot a wadded up paper towel at a trash can I yell “Kobe”. Imitation and flattery...

[bsder]

> The lack of respect Chan gets in the west is a travesty IMO.

I don't think he gets lack of respect. Directors have studied his stuff for years. Anyone who has watched his movies has been impressed for years. However, let's face it, the average person didn't have any inkling who he was until Rush Hour.

As for Jackie Chan's work, the problem is that you get injured. No stuntmen in their right mind would do the kind of stunts he did. A slight change to the angle of several of his bad landings and Jackie Chan isn't a star but has been dead or crippled for 20 years.

As for his fight choreography, the primary problem is that it takes time, and that's something that Hollywood simply will not abide. You see this in the way Hollywood does music, CGI, etc. Everything is about cranking the handle and getting things done quickly, if there is craft, well, that's a happy accident but certainly not required.

[selimthegrim]

He broke his back in the first (or second depending on how you count) Operation Condor movie.

[Insanity]

They stand among my favourite movies of my childhood. I would rent get my dad to rent the tapes multiple times!

But yeah, the injury is scary, amazing how he kept doing his stunts after that

[selimthegrim]

My bad, he cracked his skull.

[pbhjpbhj]

Doesn't he do a lot of frivolous and light-hearted movies though -- I'm a huge fan.

Take a movie like "Who am I", it's like Johnny English meets Drunken Master.

"Kung Fu" films to me always have a notion of slapstick, even the beautiful ones like House of Flying Daggers; Chan's background in Opera I imagine helps to fulfill that element of slightly ludicrous spectacle (at least if Chinese opera has any similarity to its Western namesake).

I mean Shanghai Noon, great film within its genre, but goofy as anything; actors doing those sorts of movies just aren't treated as serious actors I guess.

[jdietrich]

You can be goofy and fun and make high art. Slapstick spectacle can also be profound. There's a certain po-faced affectation that is necessary to be called an artist. Being good isn't good enough; you also need to convincingly ape the norms of a self-appointed cultural elite.

The disparity in esteem between pop and rock springs to mind. We have an ingrained sense that if a record appeals to 13-year-old girls, then it must on some level be inherently inferior to a record that appeals to middle-aged men, regardless of the actual sophistication of the music in question. A teenage boy learning to play guitar carries an entirely different set of cultural connotations and expectations than a teenage girl learning to sing, regardless of how much effort they each expend. The term "credibility" hides a deep vein of ugly bigotry.

[orangeeater]

> There's a certain po-faced affectation that is necessary to be called an artist. Being good isn't good enough; you also need to convincingly ape the norms of a self-appointed cultural elite.

The cultural elite isn't self-appointed. They clawed their way up there the same way as everyone else who has reached some position in some hierarchy. And that includes various hierarchies of artists.

> The disparity in esteem between pop and rock springs to mind. We have an ingrained sense that if a record appeals to 13-year-old girls, then it must on some level be inherently inferior to a record that appeals to middle-aged men, regardless of the actual sophistication of the music in question.

I think the more standard criticism is that some music is made by a committee as a product whereas other music is the result of a group/individual trying to make good music and that, in general, the latter category is better. I don't necessarily accept this argument, but it's different than the one you're proposing.

More generally, I find your attitude perplexing. If you want to think about this subject seriously, then surely there is no objective way to view art. If that's the case, then saying "you can be goofy and make art" is pointless because it's obvious. It's all just people's opinions. "Being goofy" can be art just like anything else.

Where I strongly disagree is where you sneer at "high art" and the "cultural elite". In my opinion, "high art" is art that is appreciated by rich/educated people who have been exposed to different things than less rich/less educated people. "High art" isn't better or worse than "low art". The definition of art is "something from which people derive emotion".

[jdietrich]

>The cultural elite isn't self-appointed.

Charles Saatchi is the most influential man in contemporary visual art. Why? Because he made a bunch of money in advertising and bought a bunch of art. He clawed his way up the hierarchy of advertising, but he bought his status as the kingmaker of contemporary art. Do a broad sample of artists consider Saatchi to have exceptional taste? Does he have unique insights into the creative process? Mu.

[Fricken]

I don't really count films he did after Rumble in the Bronx as part of his oeuvre, he effectively retired from doing the kind of physical performances that made him great after 1995. By the time he made his debut in Hollywood his body was a little too broken to keep up the routine.

[fraudsyndrome]

You mentioning Shanghai Noon as an example is bad, the ones you referenced that weren't filmed in hollywood are much better examples - Chan has already expressed his distaste in how hollywood films are produced because most of the time they're in it for money rather than any sort of art.

[paganel]

About Jackie Chans’s image in the West, for what it’s worth there are still some people who have recognized how great he is, I remember reading a laudatory article about his movies in the French movie magazine “Cahiers du Cinema” way back in late 2001, and the Cahiers du Cinema people are generally known to be pretty insufferable and elitist. I think they also focused one of their famous Hors-Serie issues on Hong Kong cinema in the ‘80s (that one I didn’t read).

[buildawesome]

I think the lack of respect in the west is due to his political views and ties to China.

[nicoburns]

I read similar things about Mad Max: Fury Road. Basically that they did all the stunts for real, and then edit it with still camera shots, and with a real sense of rhythm. IMO that worked absolutely fantastically, and I hope other films catch on.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/art-cut-margaret-sixel-edi...

[rip_netrunner]

loved the article. Appreciate the link

[crushcrashcrush]

He’s also incredibly expressive, which to a western audience may come across as “cheesy” but I personally love it. Give Rush Hour a shot and I guarantee you’ll enjoy it.

[burger_moon]

That could be why Rush Hour was such a hit. Chris Tucker is also very expressive in everything he does so it was a good matchup with two great actors.

[52-6F-62]

Rush Hour 1 through 3 have long been some of my favourite movies!

If we're getting into Jackie Chan movies, though, one cannot leave out Drunken Master

[JohnBooty]

A note of clarification:

Drunken Master is pretty good!

Drunken Master II (re-released in slightly edited form as "Legend of the Drunken Master" in the US) is the one that's typically regarded as a bona-fide classic masterpiece.

[sirmarksalot]

Just a note, "Legend of the Drunken Master" is more heavily edited than you may be aware. Here's a video illustrating some of the problems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1vMKS6jFg

I wouldn't recommend watching it. It's really missing a lot of the charm of the original.

[52-6F-62]

Thanks for clarifying!

I had to look it up, but I'm definitely referring to the first one in this case. I don't even think I've seen the second one!

Guess it's going on the list

[JohnBooty]

Oh my lord you are in for such a treat. Enjoy it!

[micah94]

Don't forget about Police Story! I can still remember seeing that in a smokey Chinatown theater in NYC and being stunned by that mall scene at the end.

[rangibaby]

Police Story and Chan's other 80s movies are the rare genuinely "all ages" entertainment (the only other thing I can think of off the top of my head is Spongebob).

They're good for kids because they are funny and full of action without being grim or dark. They're easy to follow, even for young kids, because of the lack of shaky cam and fast cuts.

They're good for adults because of all the crazy choreography and stunts.

Police Story is definitely my favorite!

[vgeek]

Thunderbolt from the mid 90's is one of his less popular, but it was Fast and the Furious, but 5 years earlier. He loves Mitsubishi, they're in a lot of his films.

Who Am I, First Strike, Police Stories, Armour of God, Mr. Nice Guy are all great, too.

[uep]

Yes (to Drunken Master)! I just noticed this last weekend that it was on Netflix and re-watched it. After many years, I still really enjoy the movie.

Another one of his that I really enjoyed was Who Am I, but I haven't seen it in probably a decade.

[52-6F-62]

I'm not sure I've seen it. I'll have to give it a watch.

I also really enjoyed his recent one with Pierce Brosnan— The Foreigner. It has a far more dramatic tone than the others, but it's great.

[uep]

Just a warning, but with Who Am I, my love of the movie largely comes from the rooftop fight sequence. It has been long enough that I only vaguely remember a few parts of the movie outside of that sequence. Thanks for the tip on The Foreigner, I will definitely check it out.

Not the same kind of movie (and not Jackie Chan), but Kung Fu Hustle is definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it. I also always thought that Bjarne Stroustrup kind of looks like The Beast in Kung Fu Hustle (it's the hair and glasses).

http://www.stroustrup.com/xBjarne2018.jpg.pagespeed.ic.hePTB...

https://cinema1544.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/the-beast.jpg

[kindatrue]

I liked Rush Hour, but according to IMDB he's been quoted as saying those are some of his least favorite movies.

[crushcrashcrush]

Ah that’s disappointing. I hope he knows the first movie was a highlight of my movie-going childhood!

[JohnBooty]

In terms of martial arts action those movies are pale shadows of his earlier Hong Kong work.

Partially because Chan is older in those movies and is a little less physically capable.

But IMO mostly because of Hollywood's unfortunate style of directing fights and martial arts battles.

Traditional Hong Kong martial arts movies use a lot of wide and long, unbroken shots. You can really see the performers performing these physical acts of skill and beauty -- you see their entire bodies, it's almost like watching performers on a stage. Which is of course Chan's background.

In contrast, Western directors typically use a lot of fast, tight, jerky, almost seizure-inducing cuts. A closeup of a fist hitting a face. A closeup of an elbow hitting a knee. A closeup of a face showing somebody's reaction to the pain. Etc. etc etc. There's much less continuity. 98% of the scenes are probably shot by stunt/body doubles. It doesn't take a lot of talent for an actor to pull off a scene like that, at least not compared to the traditional HK style where the actors have had a lifetime of martial arts training.

Of course, those are vast generalizations. You can name plenty of counterexamples from both schools!

[fraudsyndrome]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P75XwOm2JWw

Perhaps one of the most best(worst) examples of hollywoods "type" of fight scene - yes this is from netflix but more in reference to any semi-large scale film production in the west.

[thedaemon]

Here is the opposite of that from Netflix's Daredevil. An extended hallway scene. Perhaps a nod to Oldboy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV1Vzn6xwqQ

[pimlottc]

WRT your comments regarding framing/cutting techniques, the episode of “Every Frame a Painting” mentioned elsewhere in this discussion goes into this in depth and really demonstrates how it makes a big difference in the type of action that Jackie excels at. Highly recommended if you haven’t watched it before (along with the rest of the videos in the series).

[JohnBooty]

I will definitely check that out!

[fraudsyndrome]

You need to start referencing his movies that weren't made in hollywood, he has expressively mentioned why they aren't good at all. Yes he broke into the industry but he saw that they care more about money than making an film of art which leeches into the quality of the film itself.

[nickik]

Rush Hour 1 is a fun movie, the others are meh. They are not even close to the quality of some of the Hong Kong movies. Also Tucker gets pretty old quickly.

Rumble in the Bronx is an insane movie that is US based, better then Rush Hour.

[ryanmercer]

>He’s also incredibly expressive, which to a western audience may come across as “cheesy” but I personally love it.

His heightened capacity for emoting is arguably as good of entertainment as his stunt skills.

[fhood]

Nothing better than finding even more cool content in the comments. Thanks for the link. It put to words a bunch of things that annoy me about modern action movies.