Ask HN: How little work can you get away with and still have the basics?

[aardbei]

My goal in life is to have maximum freedom: minimal obligations, minimal stress, minimal responsibilities, while maintaining a private room to live in with basic utilities and food. Then I want to spend my life working on my own projects in my own time, on my own terms, at my own pace, in solitude.

This is practically how I've lived for years under my parents' roof until recently when we were displaced. Now I want to regain what I lost.

Maybe I'm greedy, spoiled, and undisciplined, but the idea of having to spend a large amount of my time and energy working in order to have these fundamental needs met is unacceptable to me. The pressure to regularly exhaust myself with financial obligations that I'm fundamentally not interested in makes it too difficult for me to live comfortably enough to comfortably pursue the things I actually care about, thus defeating the purpose of meeting those needs to begin with.

I'm not convinced it is possible for me to combine "work" and "pleasure" in a way that pays the bills without making serious compromises.

Realistically, what are the best options for coming as close to this ideal as possible?

[rboyd]

You don’t mention your citizenship or your age, both of which effect the advice I would give somewhat.

You’re basically opting in to a life of poverty until you monetize your projects. In the US you can find land in the rural Midwest wired with fiber/electric for $2k/acre. $5k to drill a well, $10k for a used camper. Then your monthly nut is just food, fuel, utilities, and property taxes ($350/mo). Upwork/codementor a few hours per month to cover this. Or full-time remote work for enough time to pay everything off and stash away your runway. Part of the game is balancing time and expenses (will you garden/raise animals to cut food expenses? heat with wood? maintain your yard?).

My fiancé and I did something similar after leaving typical big city jobs, but I think it takes a rare person/relationship to make it work well.

The part where age factors in is you need to know yourself and your partner very well. Skills matter, sometimes they can decide your security/survival. Emotional fortitude. Assume you are well fed in a quiet room. You still won’t be building anything amazing or unlocking the secrets of the universe if your mind won’t stop thinking about being lonely. If you are disciplined enough to treat it as a stepping stone along your path, if you have a remarkable partner, or if you’re ok being alone and mature enough to know that you always will be, then it can be a good strategy.

[pasbesoin]

Rural land with fiber data? Do tell.

Any tips on locating/verifying such properties? This is a move I'd like to make (well, probably putting more than a camper on it).

[rboyd]

I spent a lot of time overlaying provider coverage maps with Zillow listings. Sometimes listings will call out fiber internet or the name of a known provider.

Google queries like rural fiber coop <state> should send you on a good path. There are a surprising amount. In our specific case it was https://www.co-mo.net/ in Morgan County, Missouri. It’s even more niche because the county has no buildings restrictions, so experimental/cheaper building methods are possible.

Email in my profile for more info.

[pasbesoin]

Thank you!

[Irugo]

Thank you.

[spyckie2]

There's a couple opinions I have on this.

The first is if you really want to pursue this ideal, you can look for arbitrage opportunities. This means spending a lot of time taking multiple opportunities and selecting the ones that have the least amount of effort to reward, and doing this many times over your lifetime.

The second (and this is an opinion that you may not like) is that optimizing for no responsibilities is something you should reconsider as the goal in life.

From my experience, taking on responsibilities is a key character trait of people who can create strong communities, build organizations, care for others, and develop their environment around them. Taking responsibility is also not an innate talent, but one that you learn... by taking responsibility.

A life of avoiding responsibility closes off some paths that are really interesting to take, especially as you mature and people aren't always getting on your nerves so much. First is that responsible people receive a lot of resources in the form of trust, money, loyalty, etc, because others know they can handle these resources responsibly. Second is that the attitude and drive to positively affect the world around you is developed alongside responsibility, and separating the two, while doable, is much more challenging. Third is that the alternative to escaping responsibility is building up your skill in handling responsibility, which is very doable (in 2 areas, mainly - delivering on the things expected of you, and managing what is expected of you). If you resolve to have such an attitude, 5-6 years down the road you'll be equipped to take on larger than life challenges you never dreamed you could handle.

The essence of building something is taking responsibility, and this applies to your side projects as well if you want your side projects to be used by the rest of the world. Handling pressure is a skill that you have the pay the price to learn but is very much worth it.

Just my 2c. Had a friend whose whole family was introverts and wanted to run away from society. The grandfather was very lonely at the end of his life because of his decision to go hermit, it made my friend realize that he didn't want that to be his end.

My own youth was a life of no pressure/no responsibility just finding ways to make myself feel happy. I consider them my zombie days - not really alive, just trying to fill base needs. Nowadays I have too much responsibility, but the stress and difficulty are offset by the rewards in so many ways beyond just feeling happy - you have real control to make your life the way you want it, and you develop more and more capability over time.

[badpun]

Keep in mind that some people genuinely don't have that much room to grow. If you're not too bright (say IQ below 90) and are physically weak/prone to exhaustion, you're not going to go far, no matter how much you try. In such way, trying to minimize your effort seems like the correct strategy, as even the minimized variant of life will be a burden for you.

OTOH, if you're a machine (like many people on this forum are), then minimizing effort and responsiblity for the sake of an easy life can lead to regrets later in life.

[rocannon]

"especially as you mature and people aren't always getting on your nerves so much"

I found that as I got older, people got on my nerves more! The first few times people did something annoying, it was like, "whatever". After the 100th time, it was like "here we go again", and I was getting ready to explode. The only thing I found that helped was avoiding such people, and when you're forced to rub shoulders with them due to work constraints, it can lead to a lot of stress.

[malux85]

I found as I get older people get on my nerves less.

When the “here we go again” bit comes, there’s a few ways to react:

If you can’t really control the output, then predict it. I see how far ahead I can predict (including their questions and answers) and laugh when I’m right.

Predict then outcome and preempt it with a joke or even better a conclusion that was 3 steps ahead. People will think you’re a wizard.

If you don’t like the people then Troll hard. Bait them to reveal their ignorance in the most embarrassing way possible. Just for the fun of it.

I’ve found the experience that comes with getting older is an enormous source of entertainment

[keiferski]

My first answer has already been covered by everyone else: you'll regret this, it's a bit childish, and you probably will stop growing as a person.

That out of the way: this is very doable if you can do the following things:

1. Earn at least $1,500 per month from a remote source of income. This can be a part-time job, a business, or even just saved-up money. If you somehow have $200,000 or more, you can almost live off the interest / long enough to build whatever business you want. At $1,500 per month, 200k will last you over a decade. See http://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire for more information.

2. Are okay with living in a place like Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Slovakia, eastern Germany, Spain, Portugal, Croatia, Serbia, rural Italy, etc. If you're European, this is easy. If you're not, you'll also have to deal with visa issues. In America, there aren't as many places where you can live an okay life on $1,500 a month, but it's doable in smaller towns in the midwest or south.

[ASpring]

I think there are a great many places in the US where you can live a good life for 1500 a month. In many college towns you can find an apartment for <$500 a month and there will still be a decent amount of culture from what the college brings in.

I lived in one of these towns for a few years and was incredibly happy with my lifestyle and spent around $1500 a month.

[keiferski]

True but your lifestyle in say, Belgrade or Budapest would be much better.

[heldrida]

Isn't interest around 1 percent year average savings account? That's not 1,500 monthly, correct me if I'm wrong

[keiferski]

Yeah, it’s not really enough unless your expenses are extremely low. But if you’re okay with living in a private room (in a shared apartment) and eating all meals at home, you can live on $500 a month in many places in Portugal, Spain, Serbia, Hungary, etc. 3% is a reasonable rate to rely on, and 3% of $200,000 is $6,000 per year.

In any case, that seems extreme. I’d recommend using the $200,000 as a 10+ year runway to build your business instead.

[deytempo]

What kind of projects do you like to work on in your spare time? I have always disagreed with the inefficiency of everyone doing their own thing and not working together. If everyone collaborated and shared resources, no one person would need to work more than 3 days a week. Furthermore why not do away with the idea of a week entirely.

[aardbei]

As for my personal projects, I have a lot of interests that I like to explore: programming, physics, language learning and linguistics, art, literature, game development, etc.. The main reason I don't feel like there is a way to monetize these projects effectively is that I feel I'm extremely picky about what exactly I want to do and how I go about it. I also find the pressure that that would entail to be self-defeating. It's important to me that I reserve the freedom to be picky about my projects and to pursue them in solitude and under no pressure.

That's an interesting idea though. I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of collaboration in order minimize the amount of work necessary to satisfy the individual costs of living. I feel like it's easier to find work that pays for more than you actually need than it is to find lesser work that pays for only what you need (not to mention finding only what you need without extras or extra cost to begin with).

[arandr0x]

Stay at home spouse would work, if you're flexible about the solitude. Some kind of religious order, if you're flexible about the "own projects" (there will be community service and other people's projects).

In most places you can be a full time artist if you literally only have a room (in a shared apartment) by means of teaching classes, busking, applying to every government program in sight, etc. That's only most places. You may need to move to a larger city.

[kristianp]

Have you read the 4 hour work-week, by Ferris? His idea is to spend lots of time setting up a business and automating it so that it takes little time to maintain.

[simplecomplex]

Which, hypocritically and ironically, Ferris does not live by. He works almost constantly, and his business isn't automated and entirely dependent on self-promotion. I wouldn't call a company with a bus factor of 1 and which requires physical speaking appearances and engagements automated. McDonalds is automated. Amazon is automated. Writing, speaking engagements, podcasts, is the opposite of automation.

The 4 hour work week is a lesson in marketing not automation: Selling desire (not having to work) is very, very effective. Another way to look at it: What made Tim Ferris famous and rich? Selling the 4 hour work week.

[aardbei]

I've heard of it, I think it's about time I read it, haha. I've been spending a lot of time thinking about business as a way to achieve what I want. Thanks for mentioning it, I'm going to check it out.

[quickthrower2]

He skips the bit about how to set up the successful business - that’s an assumed prerequisite - but goes into a lot of detail about reducing the hours.

[p0d]

Your message reads like you are either speaking out of disappointment or you have overly ideal views of work.

Don’t live your life in a metaphorical or real box :-)

[UK-Al05]

Sounds like he has very negative views of work to me...

[quickthrower2]

Fuck it if you want to live this way go for it.

Lots of people sayimg you won’t grow etc. in this thread, but does that mean we have to be in a rat race, compete and screw up the planet just to be “normal”.

So Good luck, hope you find a way to make it work. If it was me I’d start I. thailand where you can have meals take away for $2 and that takes away the cooking and needing a kitchen etc. live somewhere cheap. I’d go for Phuket to avoid the city life.

[anonymouzz]

Are you up for working 8 hours a day? My experience is that many jobs (even in the top companies) allow you to stay relatively unmotivated after a certain point which is fairly easy to reach (1 to 2 years). You still have to do something, though, but not nearly as much as one might think.

[aardbei]

Thanks for your reply!

8 hours seems like quite a bit to me. I feel like I would most likely burnout much too quickly at that rate to last even a couple of months. I was unable to complete my college degree for this reason and dropped out.

That sounds interesting though. When you say you're allowed to be relatively unmotivated, does that correspond to being able to spend a lot of those "work hours" however you like without penalty?

[anonymouzz]

Depends on the company. I had a friend who spent most of his time at work not doing any work, but for example browsing catalogs and fixing his new apartment (while financing that with his salary). Although after a year or two he started to hate it and quit, changed to something that actually requires his attention, as I think he was afraid he's losing skill this way.

I'd say anything between ~30% and ~70% "time-weighted attention" required within those 8 hours a day doesn't surprise me. And when I say "required" I mean if you put in less you'll be eventually fired.

Edit: this is not to say that working hard doesn't pay off, it certainly does if the company is set up properly (and many are). I'm taking about bare minimums here.

[xupybd]

I don’t recommend going down this road. As you grow older you may regret it.

Working can be rewarding. The rat race sucks but getting older you may want a family and reasonable income is really important for a family.

Maybe there is a way you can participate in the economy without being so unhappy about it?

[krageon]

While this is a good response in terms of likely outcomes, it's important to respect OP's right to make his own decisions. In this case, he did make a decision and decided to gather advice on how to fill that in on a forum of people he trusts. It would be very aggravating to me to receive replies that essentially say "what you want is just a phase, you should stop wanting that and want something else".

[altairiumblue]

I don't think that giving appropriate advice is disrespectful of one's right to make decisions.

If a friend asks you for tips on how to do something stupid and self-harming (according to your judgment), it's okay to say "Don't do this" and not help them. Actually, that might be the best thing you can do for them.

[xupybd]

I respect the OP is in charge of his own life. I’m simply offering some input that may not be obvious to someone younger. People helped me out in a similar way. I’m so happy they did.

Can you elaborate as to why you are aggravated?

[krageon]

I suspect that while we both got similar advice in the past, we respond differently to people telling us not to do things. I don't love just being told "what you want is a bad idea" especially if it's as nebulous as general life advice/direction. For this reason I end up not listening to it, even though there might be good underpinnings. I try to let people make their own mistakes, there is not really a wrong choice to make - it's their life after all.

This is all assuming that "don't do this thing you're doing" is something that the OP has heard before, of course. It seems pretty obvious that it's not something most people would find a good idea. I assume that's one of the reasons they're asking here.

[xupybd]

No one enjoys hearing people disagree with their decisions but sometimes it's the best thing for us. There are wrong choices that people make. I've made lots of those choices. I've also had some help avoiding some of those choices.

Please don't miss understand my response. I'm not saying don't do what you're doing. I'm saying the path they're considering may not put them in the place want when they're older. Trying to hint that they may be happier if they shoulder some of the burden they're trying to avoid. That while at the moment it might seem like a good deal there is a hidden cost. As you get older you realize that you only get so much time and you may wake up one day wishing you'd gotten further in life.

There is also a lot of joy that comes from taking on responsibility and mastering it. It would be a shame to miss out on that.

[altairiumblue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjfClL6nogo

I know this isn't what you're asking for. But I think it's closer to what you need.

[kentrado]

You know what he needs? A stern talk from poppa Peterson?

I think calling him a man-child for realizing that this is a raw deal, deeply condescending and unnecessary.

It is a raw deal. The "normal" approach to work in our society is soul crushing. I'm 28 years old and I have been unhappy about my job since I left college. The thing I spend most of my time on, more than 40 hours a week, is something I hate doing, therefore I hate my life. But hey, I have car, and a bank account and the fridge is full, so it is all worth it?

I'm still exploring other ways. There are some jobs that I think will be able to satisfy me. If not, I want to do exactly OP plans to do, because I'd rather be poor and happy than middle class and miserable.

[altairiumblue]

I think when someone's goal is to go back to "life under my parents' roof", calling them a man-child is perfectly appropriate.

> I'd rather be poor and happy than middle class and miserable.

Those aren't your only two options though. You can set up a life that includes responsibility and is incredibly rewarding. In fact, being able to handle the responsibility is often where the sense of doing something meaningful comes from.

edit: To put it simply, the better reaction to realizing that "this is a raw deal" isn't to ask "How can I run away from this?", but instead ask yourself "How can I become a person who can handle this and thrive?"

[kentrado]

>My goal in life is to have maximum freedom: minimal obligations, minimal stress, minimal responsibilities, while maintaining a private room to live in with basic utilities and food. Then I want to spend my life working on my own projects in my own time, on my own terms, at my own pace, in solitude.

Nowhere there did he say that his goal is to live under his parent's roof. That's something you need to willfully misunderstand in order to disparage OP's lifestyle aspirations.

There was an old man working at a postal office at the age of 50, he decided to say fuck it and he quit his job to become a writer. Everyone else said he was crazy leaving well paying job and a future pension. He didn't care, he said that he would rather starve than spend another day doing that senseless grind. He was prepared to die. His name was Charles Bukowski.

I only have words of encouragement for someone who wants to dedicate his limited time on this earth pursuing his own projects and aspirations.

I think your responses say more about you than about OP.

[altairiumblue]

me > I think when someone's goal is to go back to "life under my parents' roof", calling them a man-child is perfectly appropriate.

you > Nowhere there did he say that his goal is to live under his parent's roof.

OP > This is practically how I've lived for years under my parents' roof until recently when we were displaced. Now I want to regain what I lost.

If we are looking at the same text but seeing different words, we can end this discussion.

[kentrado]

Let me help you understand what OP wrote. It is not that difficult.

OP's goal as clearly stated has nothing to do with living with his parents. He wants time to follow his personal projects. When he was living with his parent he was able to do those projects. But now that that's no longer possible, he wants to regain what he lost in terms of free time and responsibility so he can get back to working on his personal projects.

We can end this discussion right now. I have nothing else to say to you.

[nuclx]

That's not constructive advice.

[rocannon]

It may be tough for people to give advice, because I think your options are going to vary a lot, depending on where you live.

The first thing I'd recommend, though, is that you keep track of all your expenses, if you aren't doing this already. This gives you the starting point for deciding how much money you really need to make in order to live the way that you want. Please keep in mind that expenses can increase as you age: for example, health insurance premiums can skyrocket depending on where you live, and things like hearing aids, expensive dental work, and so on, may not be covered by insurance. You may not want to worry about this stuff now, or maybe you'll get lucky. Anyway, if you track your expenses now, at least you'll have a handle on what you need for the immediate future, barring unforeseen emergencies.

A few years back, my goal was very similar to yours. I started tracking every single expense to figure out how much money I actually needed to survive per year. As someone else mentioned, you can amass a pile of money and live off the income stream from that, provided you trust the "4% rule" or one of its variants. Take a look at these blogs:

http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/ - guy who worked till about 40 and retired, living off income from his savings

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/blog/ - guy who worked and made a chunk of money, continues to work on his own fun projects that make an income stream

http://earlyretirementextreme.com/ - guy who lived a really lean lifestyle with just a small income stream (iirc 4 h/w doing jobs off craigslist) (but then he went to work for a hedge fund, iirc).

Anyway, seems like you want to check out the last link first.

You may also want to read "Your Money or Your Life" by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin.

Someone else mentioned Timothy Ferriss' "Four Hour Work Week". I agree that it can be helpful, but I think he makes it sound easier than it actually is to set up a small lifestyle business. So I'd suggest reading it for inspiration more than anything else. Also it's a bit outdated.

I think maybe what you're asking is this: you don't want a FT job because you don't really need all the money you'd make from a FT job. You'd rather have much more free time, and screw the FT job. If this is what you're asking, definitely check out the retire early extreme guy.

I'm sure you're aware that you might change over time and may suddenly discover a passion for sports cars, a spouse, travel, or whatever. So, if you can squirrel away any extra money, it won't hurt. Just keep that in mind, it can happen.