[secfirstmd]

How is it borderline anti-Semitism to advocate that Sodastream goods which were being made on illegally occuipied territories of the West Bank should be boycott?

Israel is unfortunately decending ever future into apartheid and authoritarianism these days. From the ongoing building of settlements, to drip feeding of Gaza, to attempts to block human rights organisations and journalists - things are pretty dam bad these days for many of my friends there.

[dogma1138]

The factory employed mostly Palestinian workers and offered them Israeli wages and full benefits the documentary on the factory paints a very different picture than what the BDS did.

According the the actual investigation the idea of the factory was to build a small plant for the sake of coexistence now you might say that the idea was bad but at the end it was more expensive for them to run the factory there due to higher payroll taxes, higher insurance and security costs and after the whole campaign drama they just closed it as the their factories in Israel proper were cheaper to run operated at a larger scale and received tax benefits.

Overall I’m really not sold out on the idea that the closure did anyone but the BDS activists any good.

[secfirstmd]

So it's ok to violate the Fourth Geneva Convention if you setup the rare well paying factory?

[dogma1138]

I’m not an international law expert but I suspect you are not one either.

The truth is that the only real way to crawl out of this situation is by improving the economic standards of the Palestinians and like it or not that will not happen without cooperation with Israel including building shared industrial zones like those that were prospering before their Libyan overlord Arafat decided that enough was enough and started a mess that has been going on for 2 decades.

Before the 2nd Intifada the Palestinian economy was one of the fastest growing in the world what is it today?

[secfirstmd]

No, the only real way out of this situation is for Israeli government to actually get serious about making a deal along what has been proposed before.

Settlement building has gotten so bad in the W.Bank that any chance of a Palestinian State is close to death. Take a look at this map and see for yourself. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/west-bank-access-restriction...

or read about their effect:

https://www.btselem.org/topic/settlements

If the PA collapses, Israel will have a disaster on it's hands whereby it (openly) goes full apartheid or it goes to a Federal system whereby it no longer has Jewish majority.

On the International Law question,"the position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1682640.stm

[dogma1138]

The question wasn’t if it applies but if it’s in an explicit violation.

The 4th Geneva convention has allows for rellocation and deportation of the local population both within and outside the occupied area in support of military operations.

And why the rest would be a problem for you? BDS doesn’t want a peace treaty in its own FAQ it states that its demands are not tied to any peace process between the Palestinians and the Israelis nor will it stop if a peace is reached until all its demands are met amongst those are a full right of return and the abolishment of Israel as a Jewish national state.

The PA collapsing is essentially a dream case scenario for extreme groups like BDS since it will escalate the situation further.

[secfirstmd]

No the 4th Geneva Convention doesn't allow for it.........

DEPORTATIONS, TRANSFERS, EVACUATIONS ARTICLE 49

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place. The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

[petra]

Maybe in the past, improving the economic situation would have been enough, given enough time.

Today, Hamas and the Israeli right wing leadership prevent any chance of advancement.

Now it's possible to see the right wing leadership changes, but it won't be easy. It's much harder to see Hamas, a religious extreme based dictatorship, change, without some drastic action, be it an internal revolution or a specific type of war from Israel, aimed at toppling down Hamas. And it's really hard to believe Hamas will change of it's own - extreme religions don't do that.

Both actions would be extremely bloody. A revolution often creates a new type of mess, and how the hell do you start a revolution? And an external war, if you could convince the Israeli public(a big if), even if it's for the Palestinians benefit, is a pretty terrible way to create the necessary goodwill.

[dogma1138]

Gaza is a lost cause, the West Bank isn’t.

Without economic improvement and normalization there is no prospect for peace no Israeli government will take the chance on anything that isn’t already de facto the situation on the groun. As without it any concession will be met by a military entrenchment; Lebanon and Gaza proved that much in their eyes.

If the situation is normalized a federated system with a constitution simmilar to what Lebanon has that would guarantee Jewish sovereignty despite the possible demographics might be plausible.

[secfirstmd]

So not a democracy then?

Gaza a lost cause...you really think you can make a deal on the West Bank only? While Israel has de facto control over many parts of the Gaza Strip in violation of Geneva Conventions? https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/israels_obligations

Edit: At least 9,733 Palestinians and 1,253 Israelis and have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. At least 2,197 Palestinian children and 134 Israeli children have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000.

https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/charts/

[secfirstmd]

Look HAMAS are awful but they are democratically elected in Gaza at least and have shown themselves to be a rational actor when it comes to deal making. For example offering as a negotiating tactic to remove parts of it's charter etc. It was similar in Northern Ireland where the people on the extreme edges ended up being the ones who made the deal. In theory it might have been the same in Israel but Bibi is weak and a coward.

[petra]

Hamas was democratically elected. they don't rule democratically. they break the knees of people whoe speak against them, for example.

[dogma1138]

You can’t help but frame everything to fit your bias can’t you? Hamas’s human rights violations in Gaza and the West Bank are worse than anything Israel has done. Hamas took power by force not through any democratic process, parliamentary elections were not what went wrong in Gaza it’s military wing taking power in the Palestinian “civil war” was.

[grumpydba]

And yet it's still the best place to live in in the middle east. By far.