[tomelders]

I’ve carved a career out of rebuilds. I’m working on a rebuild right now. There’s a ton of companies out there who’ve done very well with their home grown antiquated systems from the late 90’s and early 00’s that are now facing stiff competition from young upstarts who had feature parity from day one and are knocking out new features at break neck pace because they’re leveraging the latest and greatest in tools, technology, and thinking.

I’ve always been a big believer in rebuilding your product from the ground up. I think it’s something you should always have going on in the background. Just a couple of devs whose job it is to try and rebuild your thing from scratch. Maybe you’ll never use the new version. But I think it’s a great way to better understand your product and make sure there’s no dark corners that no one dare touch because they don’t understand what it does, how it does it, or why it does it the way it does.

And I’ve always believed that if you don’t want to rebuild your app from scratch, then don’t worry, a competitor will do it for you.

So I agree with every point raised in this article. And I think it does a great job of articulating the issues that often go unspoken. But I’d like to add one more. And for me, this is the biggest issue for any company wanting to rebuild it’s product.

If your sales team has more clout than your designers and developers, then you’re fucked. And in the enterprise software world, this is the norm. An uncheked sales team that get’s whatever it wants has already killed your product and made it impossible to rebuild. Their demands are ad-hoc, nonsensical, and always urgent. So urgent that proper testing and documentation are not valid reasons to prevent a release. Their demands are driven by their sales targets, and the promises they make to clients are born out of ignorance of what what your product does, and how it does it.

This is not true of all companies. Many companies find a reasonable balance between the insatiable demands of a sales force and the weary cautiousness of their engineers. But if your company submits to every wish and whim of your sales team, and you attempt to rebuild your product, then you’re screwed.

[flukus]

> I’ve carved a career out of rebuilds

What's your learning process? If you don't do maintenance how do you know your rebuilds aren't creating the same problems that lead to the systems needing replacement?

I've got a very well founded distrust of people that only work on green field projects, they're generally responsible for the system's that need rebuilding.

[omeid2]

I have also come to believe that people who jump to rebuilds also tend to have very shallow technical skills and are not keen or capable of studying and analyzing a system at depth.

[tomelders]

Complete nonsense.

[tomelders]

Well there's little else you can do when your app is a Java applet and your runtime has just vanished from the web. These things still exist, and people like me are rebuilding them.

I don't appreciate the snark in your comment.

[darkerside]

It's very hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it. By the same principle, as someone who has built a career out of rebuilds, we shouldn't be surprised that you'll recommend this solution for a majority of hypothetical problems. I don't think you are intentionally misleading people, and I'm sure that you want the best for your clients and that you believe that's what you're providing. It's just that, for anyone else reading this thread, please realize that you're getting one side of the story.

Incremental rebuilds are not sexy. Adding unit tests to legacy code (thereby making it not legacy code according to Michael Feathers) is not sexy. Sticking with the tried and true technology is not sexy. But they are typically the most successful approaches for those not compensated for changing things for change's sake.

[hvidgaard]

> I’ve always been a big believer in rebuilding your product from the ground up. I think it’s something you should always have going on in the background. Just a couple of devs whose job it is to try and rebuild your thing from scratch.

Their time is much better spend working on improving the "legacy" codebase. Simple refactoring and splitting the codebase in a modular fashion, mean you can work on limited parts of the system in isolation. This makes incremental improvements and switch to new tech much easier, and certainly less risky than a rewrite.

[spronkey]

Depending on how heavily coupled the legacy codebase is, "Simple refactoring" really may not cut it.

I mean, you can write a bunch of pinning tests, then try to prise out various bits and pieces, sure.

But what if all the stuff you're trying to prise out can now be accomplished with a few open source libraries that didn't exist way back, with a very simple rewrite of your business logic on the top?

That's a situation I've encountered quite a few times - a lot of legacy code that's largely boilerplate, with business logic drizzled over the lot, oozing into the little cracks.

[konschubert]

> Just a couple of devs whose job it is to try and rebuild your thing from scratch.

That may be good value for big established corporates, but for startups and smaller companies I don't think it is.

[Djvacto]

Well (on a relative scale), won't most startups or smaller companies be more in the phase of "writing" as opposed to "re-writing"? I think the advice above would in theory apply to companies big enough to have legacy codebases.

[esdkl22]

> If your sales team has more clout than your designers and developers, then you’re fucked. And in the enterprise software world, this is the norm. An uncheked sales team that get’s whatever it wants has already killed your product and made it impossible to rebuild. Their demands are ad-hoc, nonsensical, and always urgent. So urgent that proper testing and documentation are not valid reasons to prevent a release. Their demands are driven by their sales targets, and the promises they make to clients are born out of ignorance of what what your product does, and how it does it.

Well said. This is easily my #1 biggest pain point as a developer.

[omeid2]

> I’ve always been a big believer in rebuilding your product from the ground up. I think it’s something you should always have going on in the background. Just a couple of devs whose job it is to try and rebuild your thing from scratch.

Hahaha. Just a couple of devs?

[tomelders]

Their job isn’t to build the whole thing. Their job is to research and explore how new ideas and tools might be useful to your business.

It’s just R&D. It’s not an exotic idea.

[zbentley]

Some of the best colleagues I've had, and teams I have worked with, have made this position (formally or informally) a rotating one. It's a great way to learn.

Corollary: this position needs to be at least two devs. Otherwise, you're rotating in people for redundant discoveries rather than mentorship.

[omeid2]

The problem with this idea, to put in terms of the main article, is that it raises Red Flag #1.

It may be a great way to learn, but I think that is better achieved with something like Google's famous 20% program not some vague rewrite attempt with no direction.

[zbentley]

I completely agree. Having a pure-research team with a mandate of "all your research must be geared towards totally reimagining the entire product" is a dumb idea. Having more granular (and collaboratively driven) goals from "some of your research must be geared towards totally rewriting an area of our application that is a major pain point, and for which all previous attempts to do incremental changes have failed for technical reasons" to "look into better tools or strategies we could use to tune performance of, or write better tests for, swaths of existing code" is more realistic and more useful.

Obviously, other, not-pure-research devs should be given time to do some of that work as well, otherwise the research team becomes the "saviors that are always about to come back over the hill" for every other team while they kick their respective cans down the road.

[repolfx]

That's pretty different to what you were talking about originally. You started by talking about rebuilds and said, have two guys just rebuilding the product. Now you're saying they're doing R&D. Those are very different tasks.