[pxlpshr]

I think Tesla's are beautiful and have set the bar, but if you want a capable & cheap alternative, look at a used BMW i3. Resale value sunk for many reasons but has bottomed.

<salesman>I bought a 2016 fully-loaded REX with 5,000 miles for under $25K, sticker was $58K. Factory warranty for 4 years, 8 years on the battery. Fastest BMW from 0-40mph. This thing flies for urban commuters. It comes with a charger that can plug into a conventional socket which can be nice for people who don't have the means to install a 240v. Fun to hack with BimmerCode to customize all sorts of stuff. My big complaint is the rear door system is awkward. It also rides a little high so I put 1" lowering springs and 15mm wheel spacers which greatly improved handling.</salesman>

I'm also interested in testing the Jaguar iPace. By most performance measures, its beaten the Model X.

[tw04]

Having previously owned a used BMW: I wouldn't touch a BMW without a warranty with a 20ft pole. I mean... The only way to realign the headlights if they get thrown off for some reason is to pay the dealership $200+ because they can't self correct and the only tool that can access the headlight controllers is BMW proprietary. Run, run while you can.

[serf]

>Having previously owned a used BMW: I wouldn't touch a BMW without a warranty with a 20ft pole.

Yeah, i'd agree if we were talking about traditional cars, and this comes from someone who has wrenched on every bolt of their BMW.

As far as the DIY repair-ability of BMW's electric cars? About the same as every other electric car -- which is to say 'near-zero', unless we're talking about wiper blade replacement level stuff.

[CogitoCogito]

To be clear, are you saying you're okay with a lack of repairability in BMW electric cars because that's standard for electrics? You're free to your perspective, but I find it a little odd. My reaction would be to simply not buy any electric cars at all. Is there any reason why the owner shouldn't be able to realign headlights in an electric car when they are able to do so with ICE cars?

[JohnJamesRambo]

I’m sure they are referring to the fact that electric cars need very little maintenance.

[StudentStuff]

Electric cars might need very little maintenance during the first few years of operation, but why should I be needlessly locked out from making repairs on my own vehicle? We've let car companies create what will end up being massive hunks of useless metal and batteries, all because we won't properly regulate them to ensure end users can work on their own cars and extend their useful lives.

That right there is why current electric cars are far from green, if it ain't repairable, its trashcan ready. Trashcan ready products are the anti-thesis of environmentally sound products.

[kamaal]

That's true to a bigger extent with ICE's than with Electric cars.

There is very little you can repair in an electric car, Its basically a battery, motor, electronics and software, and that's a plus, not a negative.

Why do you want repair something that shouldn't even exist at the first place?

[CogitoCogito]

Sure the engine needs less maintenance (at least that's the claim), but there's more to the car than that. Besides the specific example was for realigning headlights and I'm not sure why the maintenance of something like that should be different for an electric car.

[kamaal]

Because servicing and spare parts are a huge business. And unless some one is specifically looking to disrupt that part of the business. Its in their interest to keep the charges for something like that high.

[duxup]

Oh man though a BMW without a warranty though... once it hits that... the cost of repairs has to skyrocket and resale has to drop like a rock.

[cornholio]

It's an electric car. They are usually reliable until the battery or drive train fails, at which point they can be used as excellent chicken coops. Things like brakes, body, electrics should be fixable on the cheap by regular non-brand shops.

[vvanders]

Those aren't the expensive parts on a BMW, look up what a headlight assembly runs for instance.

[bald]

The body has a high portion of elements made of carbon fibers. Depending on the damage it can very quickly be a total write-off.

[chemmail]

$25k is still a bit much for a car that tiny. What you really want is a used Leaf that has bottom out at around $5000-$8000 for great condition specimens and drive great.

[jv22222]

We got a ford focus electric it looks nicer than the frog face leaf and is zippy to. Almost like new was $16k and it works great as a local second car. But the range is really low, you can’t go more than 25-30 miles away from home. Still, we love it for what it is and does.

[notatoad]

25-30 mile range is getting down to the point where a ~1500 e-bike would be almost as practical, unless you've got kids.

[TylerE]

Or you live in a place with, you know, weather.

[falsedan]

$14k buys a lot of hot cocoa

[newnewpdro]

$16k on a small vehicle that can't take you more than 30 miles from home... yikes.

[coldseattle]

A Leaf is a glorified golf cart. If you can't afford a Tesla, the next best bet is a Chevy Bolt which has a 250 mile range and not a golf-cart range. (Also, you're buying American, if that's important to you)

[pxlpshr]

A used, low-mile i3 BEV (comparable to Leaf) is around $10-15k. I bought the REX which gives me 'unlimited' distance.

[dexterdog]

i3 resale value sunk because it's ugly as sin.

[unclebucknasty]

It's like BMW didn't get the memo that electric cars don't have to look like electric cars anymore.

[roel_v]

Next year's electric X3 doesn't look that much different from the normal X3.

[jjtheblunt]

i3 was an early one.

[ben_w]

Not early enough for that to be an excuse for BMW. It looks like it was “inspired by” the style of a neon rubber G3 iBook.

[sgift]

With that argument the Model 3s resale value should be "we give you 1000 Dollar extra if you take it from our hands. PLEASE?!"

[dexterdog]

Why, what's wrong with the model 3 (tesla or BMW)? They're both pretty benign looking IMO.

[nvarsj]

I thought the same. But over time the look has grown on me. I think the 2018 model looks really good. The interior is especially nice. It's the only game in town if you want an affordable RWD (fun) electric drive.

[JohnJamesRambo]

I had never seen one. Googled. Exactly as described.

[clarky07]

but, but, the range :-(

It's actually probably fine for most people, but I have a long commute and it wouldn't cut it for me sadly.

[pxlpshr]

The Range Extender means you can drive across United States without depending on the grid; the REX is a gas re-generator. The BimmerCode hack(s) makes it more enjoyable to actually go the distance. I now have a combined 140 miles per charge and ~2.5L gas reserve. There is a popular i3 Facebook Group where people log their long distance drives.

All of that said, my average commute is 10 miles so I'm purely electric about 95% of the time unless I forget to plugin. I got the REX because I thought the resell would be better in Texas.

The i3 has a "BEV" version that is much cheaper but more limited in its range; newer models are getting better tho.

[madengr]

Can go even less. I bought a 2015 Nissan Leaf with 19k miles for $8,500.

[fjsolwmv]

That's amazing. I assume that includes (implicitly) $10k federal plus CA tax credit plus $11k depreciation on a base S model.

How old was it when you bought it?

[madengr]

I bought it used in 1/17, so under 2 years old. Base model with QC port. No tax credits available as it was used. Though between the $7,500 federal and $10k KCP&L (I live in KS) rebate, I could have bought a new 2017 for under $15k.

The asshat Nissan dealers wouldn’t budge on list price, so screw buying new. There is a guy locally who only sells used Leafs, as a bunch came off leases, and he flips them from auctions.

http://www.forgetfuel.com

There are lots of Leafs and Model S around Kansas City. I’m sure we have the best charging network in the country.

[nerdwaller]

Just be careful if you’re in a cold climate. A buddy owned one and had to charge his leaf at Nissan dealerships in the cold to make it home after work - and if I recall right, his commute wasn’t more than 15mi/way.

[r00fus]

This makes sense - for whatever inane reason (I'm not going to outright say it's malfeasance), Nissan chose to not include active thermal management for their Leaf line of cars. Even the one they sell today only has less effective cooling.

This means that older Leafs have a greatly reduced range. Even my budget Ford Focus EV 2017 ($16k negotiated cap cost) has active thermal management for the battery pack so I might keep it off-lease.

[madengr]

Keep in mind, the Leaf came out 1-2 years before the Model S, and and less that 1/2 the price. It uses totally different style of batteries. Probably all cost cutting. But yeah, cooling would be nice. They did some redesign for 2015, but it is still air cooled.

[r00fus]

Sure, but why does the 2018 Leaf not have active thermal management for their battery pack?

If my compliance-car Ford POS has it, surely the top-selling EV in history should have it by it's 2nd version model.

[outworlder]

That doesn't sound right. That's only 30 miles, total. This should be easily doable even with the cabin heater + battery heater at high highway speeds. Was this Leaf's battery healthy?

[NegativeLatency]

https://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-w...

Seems like if it gets cold enough it might be a problem.

[madengr]

Those graphs show a 50 mile range on the Leaf. That’s still enough sub 0F to get me to work and back, twice.

[thelastidiot]

Leaf is my daily commuter. I inflated the tires to 42-44psi and got the extra mileage out of that. The recommended tire of 35psi is way too low too.

[madengr]

I live in Kansas, and have driven it sub 0F with no issues.

[brightball]

IMO nothing beats a slightly used Volt.

[serpix]

It is a ridiculously well engineered car. Way more power than the competition, bigger battery than the competition. The 2009 model is still technically ahead of all the other plugins on the market.

[dsfyu404ed]

Yeah, but GM products are not exactly fashionable among people shopping for Tesla alternatives.

[dexterdog]

And the i3 is? That's one of the ugliest cars on the market.

[seattle_spring]

It's not about the look of the car for BMW owners, it's just about the price tag and the name on the badge.

[dexterdog]

I thought the i3 was a pretty affordable BMW esp if you can get the rebates.

[seattle_spring]

I think you may fall into the category of people I was referring to, if you think $45k for a slow, base model car is no big deal.

[dsfyu404ed]

An ugly German luxury car is still a German luxury car.

[dmead]

the (v|b)olt has horrible charging infrastructure.

[asdignoio]

It doesn't matter for the Volt. Since it has a range extender, there's no real need for fast charging. Just charging it every night from a 120V outlet will eliminate most gas usage for most people. If you run out of charge, it's an annoyance rather than a disaster.

I can't speak to the Bolt since I've never seen one.

[dmead]

I've test driven a bolt and done the diligence on it.

It needs 4 (FOUR) days to charge on a standard outlet. If you happen to own a house, you can have the higher amp outlet installed for like 2k.

Otherwise, good luck finding a fast charging station for GM cars. They don't exist.

[fjsolwmv]

It depends on your mileage. 4days to fully recharge from empty, if you are on a road trip (which you obviously couldn't do in a Bolt). But overnight it will charge 50miles, which covers local daily use.

[jjtheblunt]

i3 with REX is _not_ the fastest BMW from 0-40. i3 pure electric is faster, for one counterexample.

Having driven one for nearing 4 years, it's crazy fast.

[pxlpshr]

Correct. "one of the fastest..." is more accurate. The new m4's beat the i3 0-30 but only by a few fractions.

In any event, it's very very fast for an urban commuter and I annoy plenty of people driving AMGs and Porsches in my clown car.

[LoSboccacc]

> wheel spacer > improved handling

X) doubt

[newnewpdro]

> Fastest BMW from 0-40mph

What is this nonsense?

The REX isn't even as fast as the standard i3, nevermind considering actual performance-oriented BMWs. Your statement is so generalized it includes the S1000RR and HP4 superbikes in its comparison, hogwash.

[dzonga]

glad someone mentioned bikes(motorcycles). very friendly to the environment, well except of course super sports | sports since they guzzle gas. but sill better mpg than most cars. my stolen fz1 used to get 50mpg when I was doing over 120mph

[newnewpdro]

I highly doubt your fz1 got 50mpg while traveling over 120mph.

Presumably you mean you averaged 50mpg across a tank of gas which included some time spent > 120mph, which is a huge difference. Most riders can't really sustain > 120mph for an entire tank of gas, which is typically the granularity of measurement for casual mpg estimates made at fillup time.

My experience with liter bikes was that the fuel economy dropped to < 10mpg approaching vmax, which in combination with their small tank capacity poses a very real problem for those fleeing police.

[jjtheblunt]

i was like wtf at that comment too, partly because i drive a pure electric i3 for almost 4 years, partly because of the motorcycles, though a pure electric i3 IS fast.

[newnewpdro]

I've never been in an i3, but just judging from the numbers on wikipedia; 168 BHP with a claimed 2635 lb curb weight, reminiscent of Mazda MX-5 numbers, is not what I'd call a fast power:weight ratio.

There's no doubt in my mind that the i3 feels quick off the line being electric. But I don't think it qualifies as fast unless you're comparing it to a Nissan Leaf or other comparatively slow EVs.

[coldseattle]

Or a Chevy Bolt!

[atomical]

The aesthetics of the BMW i3 are poor. Is that why resale value dropped?

[Sohcahtoa82]

Aesthetics are 100% subjective.

I think it's a fine looking car.

[argonaut]

Whether something looks "good" is subjective. But you can't deny that the REX looks different from typical cars.

[_yawn]

Subjective != arbitrary.

[pxlpshr]

Yes, it's a clown car but I'm okay with that. Resale dropped due to federal tax credits and BMWs aggressive leasing plans.

For me, it was an experiment to try EV and I'm 100% sold. It also pushed me to go full solar on the home we're building. Rather make an environmental impact than a status statement.

[atomical]

If they made it look like any other BMW I think it would be a nice ride. I guess they may feel that dilutes the value of their other product lines?

[rich-and-poor]

  I'm also interested in testing the Jaguar iPace. By most performance measures, its beaten the Model X. 

You are lying. The iPace is FAR behind the Model X in all performance measures. The iPace has a manufacturer's estimated range of ~350km, no EPA rated range given. The Model X has EPA rated maximum range of 475km - that's a third party verified range that is 125km above the estimated (and very optimistic) range of the iPace. As far as speed goes, iPace is 4.8s to 100km/h, while the P100D variant of the Model X is 0 - 100km/h in 3.6s, a solid second faster.

I don't know why you write such obviously wrong things. They are blatantly false and misleading. Don't write stuff that is blatantly wrong, you poison the internet along with the collective human consciousness.

[jameskegel]

I appreciate that someone is stable able to cast a critical view on those spreading non-facts. I hope this catches on.

[pxlpshr]

One of us is correct, depending on what the other is talking about. But "FAR behind" is a bit of a gross overstatement. I also don't understand your negativity except that it must be rooted in a love affair for Tesla/Elon.

When I said performance, this is the video I watched that compelled me to get interested in what Jaguar was doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keWERJBfDPI

[rich-and-poor]

You are being fooled, they never show the backside of that Tesla Model X to reveal the battery size. They are also not really an independent third party

[SmellyGeekBoy]

A relative of mine who works for JLR was claiming that the iPace was better than the Model X in every way the other day too. He started reeling off figures that were blatantly inferior. I can only assume GP also works for them. It's a strange mindset over there.