[gormz]

I think the real problem is that you had expensive cars. No shit you save money when you take ubers rather than owning a BMW M3 and (what I assume) was a decked out wrangler. If you bought a sensible car, your monthly costs could be much lower.

[Infernal]

To help quantify this a bit - in 2008 I bought a brand new Honda Fit (cash) for about $17k. Has 120k miles on it now, very low maintenance, few repairs, definitely a budget/economy car. Over 10 years, another $600ish a year in gas (lifetime average of 35mpg), 4 sets of ~$400 apiece tires, ~$80 in oil changes a year, another ~$700/yr in insurance, looks like a TCO of $32k (and I'm sure I'm leaving stuff out). $266/mo is quite a bit more than what this person has spent on Uber.

The big difference is this person is only using ~114 rides/year, whereas just commuting to work I use my car for ~400 rides/year. Add in one out and back weekend trip (ignoring shopping trips through the week etc.) and we're up to 500 rides/year. If my average ride cost were the same as this person ($17.50/ride) I'd be looking at over $700/mo.

[docker_up]

I have a Honda Fit and it's a beautiful car. I am in love with it, and I don't think I will ever buy another type of car again. The maintenance costs are ultra low, much lower than my Honda Accord.

But there is no way it gets 35 mpg. I have been keeping track meticulously and the maximum I get is about 30 mpg, and it drops to 27 if I do any city driving. If I do only highway driving, I can get up to 320 miles in a single tank, but I'm driving on fumes at the end. I normally get about 280 miles per tank, which is about 27 mpg at 10.6 gallons.

Also, with my 2011 Honda Fit, I'm at 120k miles. I've had 2 sets of new tires, but no other maintenance besides regularly scheduled maintenance.

[Infernal]

So I have also meticulously kept track of my mileage, from January 2013 to November 2017 (my wife began driving it in November, and I didn't have an iPhone app to track it prior to 2013). The current average over that time frame is 36.8MPG. Worst tanks I have are when I was only on the interstate, would get 34MPG.

Mine is an '08 - they seem to have gotten heavier in later years. It also has a manual transmission, which offers more flexibility for conserving brakes and fuel. My wife gets more in the 32-34mpg range, but doesn't keep close tabs on it - she also now has a couple car seats and toddlers in the car, so weight penalty.

EDIT: There might genuinely be an issue with your car - I have a 10.8 gal tank as well but routinely get over 400 miles per tank - 370 if I've been driving more aggressively.

[romwell]

Fitniks unite!

MPG on the Fit depends on how you drive it. It hits max MPG at about 55MPH, if I recall correctly.

Now in TX you have highways with 85mph speed limit (most are 75), and in CA people drive as if the speed limit was 85 anyway - which is how I end up with the same mileage as what you report.

[jedberg]

You're right that it's way cheaper, but you did forget to account for the opportunity cost of the $17K up front (about $1700 in interest in a simple savings account, but depending on how you invested it, you may have done better).

[Retric]

The fit is probably worth more than 1700$ right now. You could also have invested the savings to make even more money.

Still, the goal is a ballpark not an exact number and that's plenty to say Uber would have been a poor fit.

[jedberg]

> The fit is probably worth more than 1700$ right now.

Yes but the $17K plus the interest would be $18.7K. :)

And like I said, it's still a much better deal than Uber, but the opportunity cost of the up front money is often missed in these types of calculations, and can be significant.

[Infernal]

I think you're both making good points here but just to clarify:

I did not account for the interest that could've been earned on that $17k (which could conservatively be $1700, aggressively could've been another $17k).

I also did not account for the residual value of a 10 year old 120k mile Honda Fit, which is probably in the $5k range.

[Retric]

17k - 700$ a month stops being 17k very quickly.

You need to look at pricinciple - expenses + interest for each month on both sides. Consider if he had a pile of money to cover 700$ a month in Uber driving and what would happen on each path.

[infinitone]

You paid $400/tire? isn't that kind of expensive for a honda fit?

[psychometry]

Pretty sure that's 400/set and you need to buy a new set every few years.

[Infernal]

Ah, good point. I was referring to about $400 per set of tires including installation. My original post was unclear in that regard.

[lttlrck]

Besides that it could be argued that buying an M3 is not an economic purchase, it’s an emotional one. Presumably you go into it knowing it’ll have higher than average TCO, that it’s not designed as a commuter vehicle, and you accept the cost because you are a car enthusiast - and taking Uber ain’t your bag.

It’s an odd reference for the comparison.

[nealmueller]

Hi, I'm Neal, author of this analysis. Yes, you nailed it. I was just thinking today about what older car (2014 or earlier) I could buy for $10,000 or less that had adaptive cruise control and lane assist. That would allow me to disengage mentally a little from driving without suffering depreciation. Is there a way to search for what's the oldest car (e.g. Civic) that has these features?

[burkemw3]

Please don't disengage mentally from driving. If you think you need to do that, take a break instead.

[jlarocco]

Very much this. Disengaging mentally from driving is a great way to "accidentally" kill somebody.

[spookthesunset]

Don't knock adaptive cruise control until you try it. It is significantly better than plain-vanilla cruise control. I've found that when I use it, I tend to stop caring about if I'm driving "too slow" -- it makes me a less aggressive driver.

[Someone1234]

My current car has it. The person you're replying to is still correct, if you need to "disengage from driving" then pull over and take a break.

Adaptive cruise control makes driving less stressful/more pleasant but you still have to be mentally there. No system is full proof, and certainly not at this stage.

[josefresco]

This might be the funniest thing I've read all day. It's either incredibly snarky / cutting or adorably out of touch / oblivious.

[gormz]

I have a feeling this was completely serious. He's a product lead a Google. He's more important than the rest and shouldn't have to pay attention to the road because his mental time is just so damn valuable.

[josefresco]

He's more important than the rest and shouldn't have to pay attention to the road because his mental time is just so damn valuable.

I stand corrected ... THIS is the most hilarious thing I've read all day.

Edit: Removed the other adjectives because clearly, humor was intended.

[gormz]

:) i try

[gormz]

Personally, I have no idea what cars have these kind of features. I know that civics had these features as of lately. I like to have as little technology in my vehicle as possible. I think disengaging in driving is very dangerous. I am not happy with the trend as I love riding motorcycles, but don't want my family publicly shamed by Tesla when one of their camera's overlooks me and kills my ass.

[seattle_spring]

> That would allow me to disengage mentally a little from driving without suffering depreciation

This is the most "BMW driver" quote I have ever read.

[jedberg]

Adaptive cruise and lane assist weren't available in "cheap" cars in 2014. You'd have to look at something like a 2014 BMW 5 series, which would run you about $20K.

[iamatworknow]

You can get a model year 2017 (first year it came standard) Toyota Corolla with adaptive cruise control and lane assist from about $11k and up, according to a quick AutoTrader search.

[CiPHPerCoder]

> If you bought a sensible car, your monthly costs could be much lower.

$12,041 over 6 years is $2006 per year, which is about $167 per month.

All of my friends pay about that much just for car insurance every month. Throw in a car payment ($200/mo. - $500/mo. depending on the terms of the lease), gas, and maintenance (regular oil changes, tire replacements, etc.) and you'll end up way north of $12,000 after 6 years.

[sokoloff]

You have multiple friends paying $2K/yr for car insurance? Are they amateur demolition derby drivers?

I pay just over half of that for three cars and two adult drivers. (and in Massachusetts, which does not have a fully open/competitive insurance market.)

[patcheudor]

Auto insurance rates are greatly variable throughout the US and many people cary more than state minimums. Near $200/mo., is pretty normal in California. My auto insurance, with a perfect record is $3100/yr with a $5 million umbrella for three cars and two adult drivers in Idaho.

[notyourwork]

I just renewed my insurance in SF for $555/6 months. I have progressive, high deductible but coverage for me, other driver and all that (100/300/100).

[infinitone]

Thats pretty good. Can you share a bit more details about your demographics/driving history. I pay ~1600/yr with metromile and i have a good driving history. I'm in SoCal.

[notyourwork]

Surely - Demographic, ~30 year old male, married. (Getting married didn't drop it as much as I was hoping but did decrease it $150/year.)

Wife and I have not had any traffic infractions in over 3 years.

I haven't had a traffic infraction in at least 3 years (moved to West coast 3 years ago). ~30 year old male, married and are insuring a 2015 Cherokee with $2,500 deductibles.

My advice, if you can set aside $2,500 or have it in savings I would move your deductible up and use insurance for severe accidents. Don't use insurance to replace a cracked windshield.

[krisdol]

As another data point, perfect record, about $700 a year in insurance for my spouse and I sharing a car in Boston.

[sokoloff]

Agreed on the state minimums, which are a joke ($20K and $40K I think here).

We carry many multiples of the state minimum, which was needed to secure an umbrella policy for the excess. That doesn't include the umbrella, which we have in place mostly for other reasons (and is cheap).

[lscharen]

I'll throw a data point in here: Three vehicles (2014, 2009, 2006), no accidents, rural Midwest. ~$2,000/yr for insurance with standard 100/300/100 coverage.

[danvasquez29]

different states' laws can have a major impact. I have no experience with insurance in MA, but in Michigan 2k/yr per car would be considered fairly cheap. My insurance is routinely near the cost of the car payment itself, and I have a good record and multi-product discounts with my provider.

We definitely have a problem here in this state though.

[peterwwillis]

I once had a payment to an insurance company lapse, so I was technically without coverage for one month. Because of this, all insurance providers insisted the bare minimum I could pay for any auto insurance was $400/month. Then I got a speeding ticket, and it went up to $600/month, and then $800/month. That's $9,600 a year, for auto insurance, for one person. (Fuck you, Progressive)

They claimed the rate would stay that way for several years, so I got rid of my car. I was going to get a car again once the rate lowered, but it turns out I didn't need one. Now I'm saving bundles of cash. (So, in a weird, way: Thanks, Progressive)

[devonkim]

I used to have to pay several hundred dollars / mo after I had a major accident with a personal injury involved and was in my late teens / early 20s in Washington state. The policy renewals were nearly $3k each time for just myself even under my parents’ policy (I was supposed to not be insurance due to the massive claim the company ate). I’ve heard of a special insurance policy for a basically legally blind driver that gets in accidents frequently that costs $800+ / mo.

Even the most bare bones policy I could find after that dropped off my record was $140 / mo for state minimum coverage at 22.

[jandrese]

I paid more than that when I was a teenager because insurance companies assumed I'd be street racing like all teenage boys apparently. It took less than a year to spend more on the insurance than I did on the car. Of course the cost of your own car barely counts in insurance rates, which are dominated by healthcare costs for the people you hit but don't quite kill.

Annoyingly I never made a claim so all of that money was wasted in the end.

[TACIXAT]

Young men get hit pretty hard on insurance prices. It was looking like 100$ per month for me and was enough to push a car payment into the monthly expense range I didn't care to have. I work from home though, so I don't drive a lot and have the luxury of not owning a vehicle. I could take Lyfts everywhere I go and definitely come out ahead of a car payment + insurance.

[CiPHPerCoder]

I live in Florida. Paying less than $200/mo. for insurance before the age of 25 is almost unheard of.

[dibujante]

I live in Vancouver. Insurance for new drivers can start as high as $5000/year.

[cableshaft]

I have a license and a car, my girlfriend doesn't.

My girlfriend takes an Uber home from work every day right now (I drop her off in the morning then head to work. I'm still at work when she gets off work). It costs her an average of $25 per trip. 25 * 5 days a week * 4 weeks per month = $500/month in expenses. That's for a single 20 minute Uber (usually Lyft now, it's been cheaper) a day, that's it. I'm surprised the OP can get away with $167 in Uber expenses doing without two cars as the OP suggests.

It's about 40 extra miles I drive a day for her also, since her work is in the opposite direction of mine, so tack on the extra maintenance required for 800 miles per month on my car (hasn't been too much yet, but the car is starting to get old... let's say $40/month ), along with that much in gas (right now about $104 a month), and our total cost per month for her to go without a car is $644 a month.

My car payment is about $300 a month, so let's assume she can find the same or even less in a lease, especially since her credit is better, and I already estimated the fuel and maintenance as $140, but it'd transfer over to her paying it. Then she'd probably have to pay about $100 a month for car insurance (I pay less, but she'd be a new driver), and therefore our total costs for her to drive are probably around $540 a month, or about $100 a month cheaper.

To me that's a pretty slim margin. The main reason I wouldn't mind her starting to drive is it wouldn't be necessary to take her to certain places and save me an hour out of the day every day, not due to savings. Which I always assumed we would save a lot of money if she drove, until I did the math.

Also I live in the suburbs so if neither of us had cars our Uber expenses would be like $2006 a month, not per year, based on how much we drive currently. But it does look like having only 1 car in the household might be feasible, instead of the assumed 1 car per individual, like was the default in the previous generation.

[NDizzle]

North of $12,000 and you'll own a car. The no-car-movement is great for cities and people with lots of patience.

You'll never, ever take Land Cruisers away from me.

[CiPHPerCoder]

> The no-car-movement is great for cities and people with lots of patience.

I don't own car (nor have any intention of doing so) due to being too blind to drive safely, but not blind enough for any sort of government assistance.

(I'm not legally prevented from driving, I'm being considerate of the safety of others.)

[saudioger]

>The no-car-movement is great for cities and people with lots of patience.

Unfortunately Uber is kind of undermining public transportation though. In my city transit ridership is down, which ultimately impacts funding.

I can sit outside any sort of venue/party/bar and watch Ubers pull up by the dozen. 5 years ago most of those people would have been walking to public transit because cabs were more realistically priced (for the medallion owners at least, the drivers often got shafted there too). Uber trips often cost less than the price of simply stepping foot inside a taxi.

I've talked to my neighbors (6 college students sharing a house), and they've literally never taken public transit since living in the city, and we're ~5 minutes from a major bus station and ~10 minutes from a subway station. I was flabbergasted.

Of course, traffic is worse than ever (this is attributable to multiple factors not limited to Uber/Lyft).

[krisdol]

I can't stand what ubers and lyft do to congestion. The drivers have no incentive to stop in marked areas or even pull over to the side when picking up/dropping off. Most of our busier two-lane streets are now 1-lane congested behemoths thanks to ride "sharing". It does get me on the bike more though. There aren't enough cops to enforce or care about the problem, and unlike some European countries, the culture in the US around citizens reporting traffic violations is nearly non-existent, so everyone gets away with it.

[Driverswanted]

Amen. Much of hackernews fails to understand that some people love driving.

Car culture is huge thing. I just bought an Audi S3, and derive pleasure whenever I hit the throttle.

[nealmueller]

Hi, Neal here, I authored this analysis. I totally get you. I love driving. M3 is the ultimate driving machine (tm). But sometimes I prefer to do other things. Selling my car let's me drive when I want to and ride when I want to. I've found my correct ratio is 1% driving, 99% other things. Each person will have their own ratio.

[MasterPI]

Exaclty. I just made a similar comment down below saying that some people choose a car with their heart not their head.

[gormz]

Okay, but you can expect a car to last upwards of 10 and you own it. If you decide you want to drive down the coast, you can do just that. I think services like this are way overhyped and wouldn't exist if they saved you money.

[zilian]

Well they actually operate at a loss, so it wouldn't be so surprising if you save money using uber instead of owning a car. Magic VC money subsidize your trips ;)

[SpecialistEMT]

this myth again.

uber makes money on every ride. they operate at a loss annually because they invest everything in expanding to avoid paying taxes - like most companies do.

[zilian]

It's quite true that they make money on every ride - what I meant is that we get "cheap" rides while they try to win a "winner-takes-all" monopoly, because they can afford to "invest" in expanding, with heavy losses (4.5B in 2017).

It's also true that it's not sure they will ever reach profitability. Therefore, my comment.

[the_gastropod]

> Throw in a car payment

They said sensible car. A car you need a loan for is not a sensible car.

[other_herbert]

At least last year, "new car loans" had a really low rate, and I think as long as it's newer than 3 years old and less than 30k miles or something a used car still qualifies.. if you have money making more in interest than the loan percentage, you shouldn't pay cash (assuming you have greater than the financed amount earning interest)…

[the_gastropod]

Interest isn't the killer, it's the insurance. When you owe money on a car, you're typically required to hold full coverage insurance on the car. That is not cheap.

[Driverswanted]

Being as how you can finance a new car for 0% interest, why would you pay cash? Sounds like you're giving terrible advice.

[rsynnott]

Well, for a start, if you're looking to save money, you certainly shouldn't be buying a new car.

[justin66]

That's not "certain." When market conditions change, you'll occasionally be able to get a new car for less than what you'd pay for a used one of the same type. Drastic changes in fuel cost and manufacturers discontinuing an unpopular model are the sorts of things that lead to this situation.

[gregimba]

You do realize profit is built into a 0% loan right? Its essentially an upfront interest payment for the duration of the loan.

[Driverswanted]

What on earth do you mean. Have you ever bought a car?

You negotiate the price you are willing to pay. The dealer has no idea if you are leasing, paying cash, or financing. The all-in price is either financed or leased at a specified interest rate. They do not "add in" an up front payment. That doesn't even make sense, and would be incredibly misleading.

If we negotiate $25,000 for the car,and I finance at 0%, you are saying they up the price to $27,500 to "build in a profit"? Nonsense. The numbers are in front of you and you can do the calculations yourself with high school math. 0% is 0%.

You are totally out of your element and shouldnt be providing financial advice. Maybe that's why the dealer rips you off.

[smogcutter]

You're wrong. Cash back rebate offers usually don't apply to the 0% apr deal, so the amount financed will be higher. Which option is better depends on the size of the rebate, what interest rate you can get outside the low apr deal, and the amount financed.

Edmunds has a calculator if you need help with the high school math: https://www.edmunds.com/calculators/incentives-rebates.html

[donarb]

If the choice is between you getting a "sweet deal" or the dealer making a profit, you will lose every time. Rebates and magic 0% interest are designed to get you to sign on the dotted line without reading the fine print.

[CiPHPerCoder]

1. The two-word phrase sensible car was not defined by the comment I replied to; it was left up to interpretation.

2. Even if I take your assumption as the other poster's definition of sensible and remove any car payment, gas + insurance + maintenance yields a 6 year cost above $12k. My point stands.

[the_gastropod]

> gas + insurance + maintenance yields a 6 year cost above $12k

This will depend on the individual circumstances. Liability insurance is significantly cheaper than full coverage. Average annual liability insurance is ~$552/year [1]. Driving the ridiculous 12k miles per year that average americans drive, a Prius would burn roughly 226 gallons of gas. At today's price of gas ($2.94), that's $664/yr. At 6 years insurance and gas will run you $7,296. I'm very skeptical of depreciation + maintenance blowing $4,704 over 6 years on a Prius...

[1] https://www.carinsurance.com/average-rates-by-age.aspx

[CiPHPerCoder]

Hahaha, $552/year for car insurance in Florida?

The high cost of car insurance, coupled with the low wages in this state, are a significant factor that kept a lot of my peers in poverty well out of high school. The usual story goes like this:

  - Reliant on a hand-me-down car to get to work.
  - Work barely pays for rent, car insurance, gas, and food.
  - Car needs maintenance but no money for that.

The end result is predictable: A lot of Floridians work for just enough money to be able to get to work, and as soon as this equilibrium is shattered, our lives fall apart.

Charitably, I think the lowest I've seen anyone's insurance payment in this state is $89/month, because they were over the age of 25 and their car fit the requirements for lower insurance rates nicely. They still had a car payment ($400/mo. IIRC) though.

[the_gastropod]

> the lowest I've seen anyone's insurance payment in this state is $89/month [...] They still had a car payment ($400/mo. IIRC) though.

Again: liability insurance is a different thing. When you don't own your car (aka when you take a car loan), you are required to have insurance that can cover the cost of the car. When you own your car, you only need to pay for liability insurance, which is much cheaper.

Your story is all too common in the U.S. It's expensive being poor here. The frugal solution is to have money to buy a car outright. It's tough getting out from under that dilemma.

[gormz]

Yup. There are plenty of sensible options that you can buy outright. Plenty of japanese cars will last well over 200k miles. If you can't afford a new car, get a used one. There's a culture in the US that makes us way to comfortable taking out loans.

[gonehome]

Especially when you consider the option (in California) of a Fiat 500e. It'e electric, ~90/month to lease and anywhere from negative $1000 down (when taking into account the CA $2500 incentive you get paid to take it) up to 1500 down.

You can even find pretty good lease deals on the more expensive BMW i3 - used electrics are pretty undervalued at the moment.