[tootie]

Verbosity is usually the worst argument against a language. Your coding efficiency is not limited by how fast you can type. I've been using Kotlin recently which is basically just Terse Java and it's very nice but hasn't turned my world upside down.

[kccqzy]

Verbosity absolutely hurts comprehension of code. It's easy to hide hugs in code that seems to be just boilerplate. It also means that given a fixed screen estate you can less of the actual logic of the code at a time.

[ethbro]

Absolutely this.

For whomever tells me verbosity isn't a limitation to a language: find me the single incorrect statement in a 100 line function vs a 10 line function.

And no cop outs with "I use {bolt-on sub-language that makes parent language more concise}" (that's not a mainstream language then) or "Well, you can just ignore all the boilerplate" (bugs crop up anywhere programmers are involved).

Or give me an ad absurdum concise counterexample with APL. :P

Ultimately language verbosity is mapped directly to proper abstraction choice. In that the language is attempting to populate the full set of information it needs, and can either make sane assumptions or ask you at every turn.

[dnomad]

The fact that even the pythonistas are now adopting types suggests that verbosity is much less of a concern than a bunch of spaghetti code that cannot be tested, understood, or refactored. You have to squint really, really hard to think that the people who chose type-less languages over Java ten years ago actually made the right choice. Personally, when diving into codebase its "verbosity" has never been an actual issue. Nor has lack of "expressive power." Of much greater concern is how well modularized it is, how well the modules are encapsulated, and how well the intentions of the original authors were captured. Here verbosity and types in particular have been absolutely invaluable. I suspect in the end this is why serious development at scale (involving many programmers over decades) will never occur in "highly expressive" languages like lisp and to a lesser extent, ruby etc. It is simply not feasible.

[nemothekid]

As I dive deeper and deeper into this thread, it looks like people are confusing "verbosity" with "it-has-a-type-system".

Java (5,6) wasn't verbose just because of types. Java was verbose because the language, and everything surrounding it was verbose. It was difficult to read Java at times because the language had been gunked up with AbstractFactorySingletonBeans. FizzBuzz Enterprise Edition is a joke that is only funny and simultaneously dreadful in the Java world. However, despite being relatively more complex, Rust is far less verbose than Java- even though Rust is more powerful with regards to types. "Hello World" in rust is 3 lines with just 3 keywords. The Java version has 12 keywords.

Engineers ten years ago weren't choosing Ruby/Python over Java because of static typing. They didn't choose Java because it was relative nightmare to read and write.

[erik_seaberg]

Lambdas saved the language. Java 6 was the kingdom of nouns. You couldn't pass statements or expressions, so instead you had to create classes that happen to contain what you really wanted. Async code was nearly unreadable because the code that matters is spread out and buried.

[ethbro]

This was said in other threads under the article, but we've definitely made huge strides in more efficient typing.

The general narrative of "early Java typing hurt development productivity" to "high throughput developers (e.g. web) jumped ship to untyped languages" to "ballooning untyped legacy codebases necessitated typing" to "we're trying to do typing more intelligently this go around" seems to track with my experience.

Generics, lamdas, duck typing, and border typing through contracts / APIs / interfaces being available in all popular languages drastically changes the typing experience.

As came up in another comment, I believe the greatest pusher of untyped languages was the crusty ex-government project engineer teaching a UML-modeling course at University.

To which students, rightly, asked "Why?" And were told, wrongly, "Because this is the Way Things Are Done." (And to which the brightest replied, "Oh? Challenge accepted.")

[neves]

I really think what saved Java is the really good tooling. These nice modern IDEs almost program for you.

[pjmlp]

10 years ago I was writing Java and still am today, alongside other languages.

I will never chose Python/Ruby for anything else other than portable shell scripts.

[ageofwant]

15 years ago I wrote Python code for a living. Then about 9 years of Java. The last four years was exclusively Python. I'm never going back to Java, it has nothing I want.

[orf]

Each to his own I guess.

[steveklabnik]

(There’s only one keyword in Rust’s hello world, “fn”.)

[vesak]

And I think 3 in Java's? public, class and static.

[true_religion]

Python types are optional, and have adequate inferencing. Any where you think it's too verbose to use types then you don't have to. In Java, you must use types even if you believe it is just boilerplate. That's an essential difference.

[Buttons840]

I keep a mental list of the qualities of good code, "short" and "readable" are on the list. I've sometimes wondered whether "short" or "readable" should be placed higher on the list, and I eventually decided that short code is better than readable code because the shortness of code is objectively measurable. We can argue all day over whether `[x+1 for x in xs]` is more or less readable than a for-loop variant, but it is objectively shorter.

Of course, it's like food and water, you want both all the time, but in a hard situation you prioritize water. Likewise, in hard times, where I'm not quite sure what is most readable, I will choose what is shortest.

[rxhernandez]

> I eventually decided that short code is better than readable code because the shortness of code is objectively measurable

I can debug sophisticated algorithms code that is readable and explicit far more easily than short and concise. Anyone that tells you otherwise has never had to debug the legacy optimization algorithms of yesteryear (nor have they seen the ample amount of nested parens that comes from a bullshit philosophy of keeping the code as short as possible).

[heavenlyblue]

All arguments about computer languages will always end up in disagreement, since every person in that argument does programming in an entirely different context.

Short is good when the average half-life of your code is less than a month.

When you're writing something for 10 years and beyond - it makes sense to have something incredibly sophisticated and explicit.

Otherwise it doesn't since the amount of time it takes me to comprehend all of the assumptions you made in all of those nested for loops is probably longer that the lifetime of the code in production.

List comprehension has a nice, locally-defined property in python: it will always terminate.

[joshuamorton]

Only if you iterate over a fixed-length iterable.

    [x for x in itertools.count()]

will never terminate.

[ethbro]

Obligatory Dijkstra: "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it."

[dorfsmay]

So you must be a fan of obfuscated C contests?

The main reason list comp in python were given so much praise is because how they are (were?) More efficient than loops. I personally find a series of generator expressions followed by a list comp more readable than a three-level list comprehension, although the latter is more readable.

[erik_seaberg]

If you reliably generate the boilerplate and throw it away, you can ignore it (and you've changed which language you're really using). If it's at all possible for a human to permanently edit the boilerplate, well now it can be wrong, so you have to start reviewing it.

[ethbro]

A valid point. I didn't mention it above to stay concise, but the question then becomes:

If you can reliably generate boilerplate, AND it's non-editable, then why is it required by the language in the first place?

If it is editable, then it collapses back down into review burden.

I think this is where "sane, invisible, overridable defaults" shines. Boilerplate should be invisible in its default behavior. BUT the language should afford methods to change its default behavior when necessary.

[vorg]

> no cop outs with "I use {bolt-on sub-language that makes parent language more concise}" (that's not a mainstream language then)

Why is "I use {bolt-on} that makes {parent language} more concise" a cop out? The bolt-on could be a macro language or an IDE that does collapsing of common patterns. If it makes it easier to find a bug in a 100-line function in the parent language, or to not generate those bugs in the first place, then the {bolt-on} isn't a cop out.

[ethbro]

Because I believe language stability is proportional to number of users.

Would I use a new transpiler for a toy personal project? Absolutely! Would I use it for an enterprise codebase that's going to live 10-15 years? No way!

If you accept that every mapping is less than perfect (e.g. source -> assembly, vm -> underlying hardware, transpiler source -> target), then it follows that each additional mapping increases impedance.

And impedance bugs are always of the "tear apart and understand the entire plumbing, then fix bug / add necessary feature."

When I'm on a deadline, I'm not going near that sort of risk.

[vorg]

I see "transpilers" as being on a continuum ranging from IDE collapse comments and collapse blocks at one end, to full code generation syntax macros at the other end. There's a sweet spot in the middle where the productivity gains from terser code outweigh the impedance risk.

[leshow]

With a proper type system you can often trade away the verbosity through type inference. Still, I'd argue that even if you couldn't, the extra 'verbosity' you take on from writing types in a language with a strong type system (Haskell, Rust, Scala, Ocaml, etc) is actually paid back in spades for readability. Particularly because you can describe your problem space through the types, and enforce invariants.

It's really just the 'static' type systems that only prevent the most pedantic of type errors where the argument holds any merit.

[BerislavLopac]

I personally love introducing lots of hugs in my code.

[lgas]

Write hugs, not bugs!

[tootie]

Not if the verbosity is providing extra information. Just taking away types isn't concise, it's hiding complexity. Tracing Java in IntelliJ is always trivially easy. Tracing JavaScript Kafkaesque. Python is in between.

[always_good]

It's all just trade-offs. "Verbosity" is too abstract to argue by itself because it comes in so many different flavors and spectrums.

For example, the Elm lang eschews abstractions for boilerplate, deciding that the boilerplate is worth the simplicity. And I've come to appreciate its trade-offs. For example, coming back to Elm after a long break, I've not had to spend much time recredentializing in it like I had to an old Purescript project.

On the other end of the spectrum, there's something like Rails that avoids boilerplate at the high price of having to keep more complexity in your head.

[harpiaharpyja]

The problem of language verbosity is not about writing code, it's about reading code.

Writing code is rarely problematic. Usually when you sit down to write code, you have a clear idea of what you want to do. Or if you don't, you have the advantage of being intimately aware of what you're writing.

Once your project becomes large enough that you can't hold it all in your head at once, reading code becomes supremely important.

Any time you write code that interacts with other parts of your project in any way, you will need to understand those other parts in order to ensure you do not introduce errors. That very frequently means being able to read code and understand it correctly.

There's a saying that issues in complex systems always happen at the interfaces.

[pjmlp]

I see language verbosity an advantage when reading foreign code for maintenance.

Much better than deciphering some hieroglyphs.

[harpiaharpyja]

That's a strawman. Concise code != hieroglyphs.

In fact, if you need hieroglyphs to keep your code concise that's a deficiency of the language. This is why we want expressive languages in the first place.

[jb1991]

The size of your code is the number one predictor of bugs. The more code you have, the more bugs you probably have. Smaller code bases have less bugs. Verbosity means more code.

This is why very terse dynamic languages like Clojure often have relatively low bug counts despite a lack of static checks.

Some interesting reading on this topic:

https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2017/10/221326-a-large-scale-...

[gmfawcett]

From the very article you referenced: "One should take care not to overestimate the impact of language on defects. While the observed relationships are statistically significant, the effects are quite small. Analysis of deviance reveals that language accounts for less than 1% of the total explained deviance." That's a tiny effect size.

Moreover, Clojure is fairly compact, but isn't really a "terse" language. Consider APL and J as examples of truly terse languages. Programs written in them are generally horrible to read and maintain (at least for an average programmer who didn't write the original code!). So there might be some relationship between verbosity and quality, but the relationship is far more complex than "verbosity -> more code -> more bugs." Otherwise we'd all be building our mission-critical software in APL.

Plus, there are numerous well-known cases of bugs caused because a language provides a terse syntax, where redundant syntax would have prevented the problem. E.g., unintentional assignment in conditional expressions ("=" vs. "=="), and the "if (condition) ; ..." error in C-like languages. I've personally made similar errors in Lisp languages which are about as terse as Clojure, e.g., writing "(if some-cond (do-this) (and-that))" instead of "(if some-cond (progn (do-this) (and-that)))".

Redundancy in a programming language is often a safety rail: it shouldn't be casually discarded in the name of brevity for its own sake.

[flogic]

Personal experience tells me that size is probably a proxy for "this code is mathematically written". If you have even a vague idea of the math of the code you're writing, the code tends to be both shorter and have fewer bugs. But, I'd be wary of turning that around to a blanket endorsement of terseness. Terse code often needs to be restructured when requirements change. Restructuring takes more time and also risks adding new bugs. Then there are problems with readability during debugging and understanding interfaces.

[hellofunk]

> Terse code often needs to be restructured when requirements change.

It depends if the code is terse because of the programmer’s approach, or just naturally terse because of the language.

[sorokod]

Well, there are bugs and there are bugs. With some, it is easy to find the offending bit of source code and spot the bug right away. Others may take days to localize and fix.

Bug count is not the whole story.

[the_af]

> Your coding efficiency is not limited by how fast you can type

Verbosity hurts reading, not typing. Think of reading an essay that takes hundreds of pages to make an argument that could have been written in a single paragraph.

[TimJYoung]

That's simply not true, unless you're talking assembly-level of detail.

High-level language constructs can hide details in ways that make them harder to read, not easier to read. Ask anyone that has had to read a very complicated SQL statement about how long they had to look at various bits of the statement in order to understand exactly what was going on, and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about (obviously, that person could be you, also).

In contrast, anyone can very easily understand for or while loops in any language without thinking about them at all. You can read them like you read a book.

It's simply a matter of fact that, unless the hidden details are very simplistic, abstract concepts with no edge cases, terseness hinders readability.

As for things like identifiers, all I can say is that developers that use super-short, non-descriptive identifiers because they think it helps readability are doing themselves, and anyone that reads their code, a grave disservice. They either a) don't understand how compilers work, or b) are beholden to some crazy technical limitation in the language that they're using, ala JS with shorter identifiers in an effort to keep the code size down before minifiers came on the scene.

[joshuamorton]

>It's simply a matter of fact that, unless the hidden details are very simplistic, abstract concepts with no edge cases, terseness hinders readability.

No. Using the correct abstractions helps readability.

I'll agree with you that a complicated SQL statement may not be a good thing to use, but it also probably isn't the right abstraction.

Compare, on the other hand, using numpy/matlab/Julia vs. something like ND4J.

Its the difference between `y = a * x + b` in the former, and `y = a.mmul(x).add(b)`. Granted the ND4J version isn't terrible, but I used an older similar library in Java that only provided staticmethod, so it was `y = sum(mmul(a, x), b)`, which is fine when you're only working with two operations, but gets really ugly really fast when you want to do something remotely more complicated.

And I'll even note that all three of these are already highly abstracted. If you want to drop all semblance of abstraction, keep in mind that that `y = a * x + b` works equally well if `a` is matrix and x a vector, or `a` a vector and `x` a scalar, and separately it doesn't matter if `b` is a vector or a scalar. They'll get broadcast for you.

Overly terse code does indeed hinder readability. But so does overly verbose code. Its much more difficult to understand what is happening in

    outputValue = sumVectors(
        multiplyColumnVectorByMatrix(
            inputValue, weightsMatrix),
        broadCastScalar(
            biasValue, size(inputValue)))

than it is in `out = weights * in + bias`, even though the second is significantly more terse.

[TimJYoung]

I don't know, your example seems perfectly understandable and easy to read to me. The naming is pretty good and descriptive, so anyone can understand what's going on pretty quickly.

That doesn't mean that a DSL or higher level language feature might not be better (the operations are pretty clear and not prone to edge cases, as I said before), but as far as "big problems" go, I find that example to be a pretty minor one.

[joshuamorton]

My example was small but illustrative. If instead of implementing a single linear transform, you're implementing a whole neural network, or a complex statistical model or something, it will be much easier to grok the 10 line implementation than the 150 line one.

That means less surface area for typos, bugs, etc. This compounds if you ever want to go back and modify existing code.

[the_af]

> That's simply not true, unless you're talking assembly-level of detail.

Modern language design (of the past few decades) seems to disagree with you, with a couple of exceptions. This debate involves a degree of subjectivity, of course, but it's generally false that it's "simply not true" that less verbosity and boilerplate hinders readability. The consensus seems to be the contrary. Even Java -- late in the game -- is adopting features to reduce its verbosity and improve its expressivity.

High-level language constructs and idioms only "hide" unnecessary detail; i.e. the detail where the only degree of control you have is the possibility to introduce bugs. You learn these idioms just like you learned what an if-else or a foor loop was.

[netheril96]

> Your coding efficiency is not limited by how fast you can type.

It absolute is, at least for me. Granted, the majority of time spent during programming is on thinking rather than typing, but any time spent typing detracts from time that could have been spent on thinking instead. Whenever I type a line too long, I tend to lose focus on what I am thinking, and get bogged down by language details. Besides, typing the useless thing again and again (like repeating a long type name) frustrates people, and frustrated people have a harder time to concentrate.

[dfischer]

I have a hard time believing 80% of time is spent writing code vs thinking of the right solution.

That ratio alone is enough to not worry about efficiency typing imo.

[netheril96]

You either did not read my comment or understand it, because I said the exact opposite.

[goatlover]

As a matter of preference, the more verbose a language is, the less likely I'm motivated to learn it. Why should I have to type extra stuff to do the same things I can do in other languages? If the compiler can handle it, I shouldn't have to type it.

Java never stuck with me because of that, same with trying to learn Objective C. But languages like Swift, Go, Ruby, Python hit the sweet spot.

[switchbak]

I wouldn't agree with the notion that Kotlin is just terse Java - it has a lot of things that don't exist in the Java world.

If you're just using it as a more terse version of Java, then I can understand why you're not seeing much of a change in your experience.

[cjhanks]

I can see how you might say that but... what about...

    std::vector<std::pair<std::size_t, std::complex<float>>> data = SomeMethod();

vs

    auto data = SomeMethod();

[Too]

Adding types to local variables is quite useless and should be considered redundant and non value adding verbosity. The main driver for typing is at interface boundaries so you know what types of input another function expects.

[xfer]

No, it's not useless, often i want to know what's the type of a intermediate binding without looking up all the functions/exprs that transformed an input to it, often an editor plugin helps with this, but otherwise it's real pain to understand some parts (this is a problem with rust, lsp server doesn't help with this, but for ocaml merlin works beautifully).

[dfischer]

I don’t know if I agree with this. If you want to communicate an interface for maintainabilty you’ll declare your type so you know what you’re dealing with in the future.

[joshuamorton]

I'd call that first example nothing but noise. Its probably a bit better with a type alias, but knowing that SomeMethod returns an array of uint/complex pairs doesn't really tell me anything.

If anything, this just shows me bare type information alone isn't useful without accompanying documentation. For example if `SomeMethod` was renamed `CalculateAllEnemyLocations`, it might make sense, but then I get most of the relevant information from the method name.

In other words, you have a bad api, and type information sort of, but not really, makes up for that. But that just means that you're ignoring the real problem.

[z3t4]

It doesn't matter if the more verbose version is better, we'll still use the short version because we are lazy. When programming, and you have figured out what to do, it's basically just typing in all the instructions. So typing (and reading) friendliness does matter! If it wouldn't matter we would still program in machine code. Also there's some abstraction, where 3 lines of JavaScript would need 300 lines of machine code or Java :P

[hesk]

The problem with verbosity is that not how fast you can write but how easily you can read the language. Verbosity with no information gain is distracting.