[the_af]

> Your coding efficiency is not limited by how fast you can type

Verbosity hurts reading, not typing. Think of reading an essay that takes hundreds of pages to make an argument that could have been written in a single paragraph.

[TimJYoung]

That's simply not true, unless you're talking assembly-level of detail.

High-level language constructs can hide details in ways that make them harder to read, not easier to read. Ask anyone that has had to read a very complicated SQL statement about how long they had to look at various bits of the statement in order to understand exactly what was going on, and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about (obviously, that person could be you, also).

In contrast, anyone can very easily understand for or while loops in any language without thinking about them at all. You can read them like you read a book.

It's simply a matter of fact that, unless the hidden details are very simplistic, abstract concepts with no edge cases, terseness hinders readability.

As for things like identifiers, all I can say is that developers that use super-short, non-descriptive identifiers because they think it helps readability are doing themselves, and anyone that reads their code, a grave disservice. They either a) don't understand how compilers work, or b) are beholden to some crazy technical limitation in the language that they're using, ala JS with shorter identifiers in an effort to keep the code size down before minifiers came on the scene.

[joshuamorton]

>It's simply a matter of fact that, unless the hidden details are very simplistic, abstract concepts with no edge cases, terseness hinders readability.

No. Using the correct abstractions helps readability.

I'll agree with you that a complicated SQL statement may not be a good thing to use, but it also probably isn't the right abstraction.

Compare, on the other hand, using numpy/matlab/Julia vs. something like ND4J.

Its the difference between `y = a * x + b` in the former, and `y = a.mmul(x).add(b)`. Granted the ND4J version isn't terrible, but I used an older similar library in Java that only provided staticmethod, so it was `y = sum(mmul(a, x), b)`, which is fine when you're only working with two operations, but gets really ugly really fast when you want to do something remotely more complicated.

And I'll even note that all three of these are already highly abstracted. If you want to drop all semblance of abstraction, keep in mind that that `y = a * x + b` works equally well if `a` is matrix and x a vector, or `a` a vector and `x` a scalar, and separately it doesn't matter if `b` is a vector or a scalar. They'll get broadcast for you.

Overly terse code does indeed hinder readability. But so does overly verbose code. Its much more difficult to understand what is happening in

    outputValue = sumVectors(
        multiplyColumnVectorByMatrix(
            inputValue, weightsMatrix),
        broadCastScalar(
            biasValue, size(inputValue)))

than it is in `out = weights * in + bias`, even though the second is significantly more terse.

[TimJYoung]

I don't know, your example seems perfectly understandable and easy to read to me. The naming is pretty good and descriptive, so anyone can understand what's going on pretty quickly.

That doesn't mean that a DSL or higher level language feature might not be better (the operations are pretty clear and not prone to edge cases, as I said before), but as far as "big problems" go, I find that example to be a pretty minor one.

[joshuamorton]

My example was small but illustrative. If instead of implementing a single linear transform, you're implementing a whole neural network, or a complex statistical model or something, it will be much easier to grok the 10 line implementation than the 150 line one.

That means less surface area for typos, bugs, etc. This compounds if you ever want to go back and modify existing code.

[the_af]

> That's simply not true, unless you're talking assembly-level of detail.

Modern language design (of the past few decades) seems to disagree with you, with a couple of exceptions. This debate involves a degree of subjectivity, of course, but it's generally false that it's "simply not true" that less verbosity and boilerplate hinders readability. The consensus seems to be the contrary. Even Java -- late in the game -- is adopting features to reduce its verbosity and improve its expressivity.

High-level language constructs and idioms only "hide" unnecessary detail; i.e. the detail where the only degree of control you have is the possibility to introduce bugs. You learn these idioms just like you learned what an if-else or a foor loop was.