[shorttime]

As a man, I'm clueless on how to help. I certainly don't make any comments of similar nature or perform actions described in the stories.

However, if I were to observe such an event happening, I'd be frozen. One half of me thinks, the woman is an individual and can stand up for herself. If she's uncomfortable, she'll say or do something. She's of equal standing.

The other half of me, I feel like I should say something. But by doing so, that asserts my male patriarchy views, protecting women from the danger. Women wouldn't be considered an equal in this scenario.

[eropple]

> The other half of me, I feel like I should say something. But by doing so, that asserts my male patriarchy views

When I have been in these situations, the root problem has been someone being shitty to a friend/colleague/co-worker/whatever. Saying "that's shitty, stop" doesn't mean you're speaking for any particular person or that you're defending her person specifically--what you are doing, and you can explain if asked, is that you are establishing social norms with your behavior that you are telling the group that you expect everybody to follow.

There are many axes along which one can be shitty, and it is not a reinforcement of patriarchal structures to set expectations that people be decent to one another--so long, of course, as you're doing so evenly. I have gone hard at co-workers who were shitty to women. I have also gone hard at co-workers who were jerks in code reviews.

What I quoted strikes me as perhaps a misapplication of the idea of patriarchy and what it does to society--at least, in the sort of case you're describing. Could this be taken to an extreme that would validate your concerns? Totally. But in practice? It never has been the case for me (and I am solicitous about asking if I am out of my lane). It is important to be willing to listen, in case that, yes, you are out of your lane--but I have never seen a default posture of "no, we don't allow shitty behavior up in here" cause friction with anybody it shouldn't cause friction with.

[msie]

This reminds me of a tweet thread I read today where it seemed the guy was unnecessarily lambasted for raising a question to a feminist:

https://twitter.com/akaij/status/968968751063490562

Kelly Ellis:

"But, y'know, thanks for being the dude chiming in with unnecessary remarks intended to undermine both my point, and the plaintiff's lawsuit, while we discuss the topic of gender-based discrimination and harassment.

Super helpful and appreciated."

akay:

"not at all what I was trying to do, sorry if it came across that way. I just don't see how confirming the existence of nerf guns within that team helps the discussion in any way.

unnecessarily harsh, this tweet."

So sometimes we men just remain silent.

[gowld]

It's unfortunate that often the loudest advocates for a cause are not its best advocates, and this leads to backlash. Sometimes people who take on roles that require extreme confidence forget they are fallible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing

[DoreenMichele]

As a man, I'm clueless on how to help.

The single most powerful thing you can do is engage women as serious professionals.

My biggest frustration is not with the guys who want to talk to me to hit on me. It is with the countless others who will not engage me in a substantive manner for fear of it being misconstrued. They de facto leave me alone with the creeps, trolls and assholes and are, on some level, equally guilty of treating me as nothing but a vagina. It gives far too much weight to my gender and far too little to my education, skills, competence, interests and character.

Whether a man is talking to me solely in hopes of a hookup or avoiding me for fear of offending or something, he is equally guilty of treating me like the single most important thing about me, the thing that drives all social decisions, is what bits are between my legs. This is the essence of sexism.

[msie]

Whether a man is talking to me solely in hopes of a hookup or avoiding me for fear of offending or something, he is equally guilty

I have a problem with that statement.

[matte_black]

Agreed, there is no way the guilt there is equal.

[DoreenMichele]

Your statement and the one above are part of the problem, not part of the solution. My mind boggles that you are fine with arguing that your guilt is lesser, thus somehow apparently okay in your mind.

This is exactly why progress is so painfully slow. For every one man pushing a woman into the river to intentionally drown her, a thousand more stand idly by and say "Not my problem" and then worry vastly more about defending their right to do nothing than about the injustice they witness daily.

[matte_black]

If a woman wants to come talk to me as a professional, I’m all for it. I love it when women take initiative to come talk to me, and not in some creep way like people may think, but rather because it instantly makes me a lot less anxious. I can’t be readily accused of hitting on her if she came to me first.

However, I can probably count on one hand the number of times a woman has come up to me in my professional career to talk to me about anything of professional significance.

Every time I approach a woman first however, there’s always an anxiety that I’ll be perceived as a creep, trying to play a really long game of hooking up with her. I know women must think this, because I constantly hear their stories about the various ways men hit on them in nearly any situation, and there always seems to be a bit of an awkwardness that isn’t there when they approach me first.

And if the woman I approach happens to be attractive and younger than me? It looks real bad. Indeed, if someone could have any reasonable doubt that my professional conversation with a woman is anything more than platonic, I would be uncomfortable in that conversation. Men would look at this and think “Yea he’s probably trying to get with her”.

I do not get the same anxiety when talking to a woman with her husband or boyfriend, or a woman who is much older than me, or homosexual women.

The thing about standing by and saying this is “not my problem” is that it really isn’t my problem. My problem is completely different from yours, even though it’s in the same domain, and nobody helps me with it either. As a basic straight white male, I’m a dime a dozen and if I voice any kind of problem the response is to go fuck myself.

This has nothing to do with you being a woman, there are also men with problems that I do nothing for. It’s nothing personal, it’s just business.

[shorttime]

Yeah, that's what I already do-do but your suggestion doesn't help with any of the situations mentioned in the linked post. The post describes interactions that are non-work related between people.

Work-wise, I have my "go-to" people when I need something done. I don't care what their gender is, I just know they've performed well in the past and get it done in time to help me make my deliverable date. Once a person demonstrates reliable performance of getting the right answer, I don't need to go to others. How does that help solve the problems mentioned in the post? Not really clear to me.

[DoreenMichele]

How does that help solve the problems mentioned in the post?

It sets an example. Examples are far more powerful than most people recognize.

Currently, if a man is talking to a woman, he is probably hitting on her. This becomes self reinforcing behavior. Women assume that men talking to them are hitting on them. Observers assume it is a personal relationship, not a professional one. Men avoid talking to women unless they are hitting on them because they don't want a problematic misunderstanding. This helps entrench sexism.

Meaty engagement as a professional breaks that expectation. If enough men will do it, good will crowd out bad.

Currently, women are overly vulnerable because they are professionally isolated. They get insufficient legitimate interest. This leaves them in a needy position. They can't easily afford to turn away the creeps if the only people talking to them are the creeps. They hold out hope that maybe this time it will be different.

If there are people they can reliably access who are taking them seriously, it gets vastly easier to walk away from the creeps. It also can help signal to the creeps (or the non creepy clueless) "This is how you talk to a female colleague."

[shorttime]

> Currently, women are overly vulnerable because they are professionally isolated. They get insufficient legitimate interest.

What do you mean by that?

[DoreenMichele]

I have enormous difficulty establishing professional connections. I have been on HN 8.5 years. I have zero strong professional ties. There are about 3 people who email occasionally.

Networking was one of the things I hoped to get here. There are men who network via HN. It has not worked for me.

I was homeless for 5.7 years. I remain dirt poor. My attempts to point out that my gender is a barrier to making strong professional connections is a root cause of my poverty have largely fallen on deaf ears for years and what minimal headway I have made is extremely recent.

One outcome related to that: I let some young punk talk to me for some weeks who was pretending to be my friend because he was basically the only person talking to me and I desperately need professional connections. Ultimately, he let me know he needed a shoulder to cry on because his marriage was falling apart.

I did the decent thing and was supportive for a time. Then he resumed sleeping with his wife, repeating things to her that I had told him in confidence and talking at me as if we were lovers, a thing I told him was absolutely a non starter.

The relationship made me uncomfortable from the start. There were a lot of weird issues with it that suddenly made sense after I learned he was married and hiding it from me.

I took a no harm, no foul position on it initially. The more I think about it, the more I feel I was used, deceived and set up. He had no plans to ever take me seriously. He withheld his age and marital status knowing he could not get close to me romantically if I did know those things.

All the uncomfortable red flag stuff got ignored by me because I have literally zero strong professional connections to anyone at all. I simply don't know what that looks like. Further, I am dirt poor. I am in very desperate need of connections and opportunities and cannot get that.

If I had plenty of professional connections, I would have never let this guy string me along and set me up to be his shoulder to cry on.

[shorttime]

Can't say I have many professional connections either, not a big fan of "networking" in general. However, the people I do consider connections are those from college and those from former groups at previous jobs. Maybe someone from another group, but it's rare. My career jobs have lasted a few years (4-6) so that has provided time to develop these relationships. I suppose it would be much more difficult in the gig economy to establish these relationships. I try to offer value or different perspectives at my jobs that nobody else can. Work hard, deliver, and if I can't... let them know ahead of time and what help is needed. I try to let my work network for me rather than being active about it. Do you have any projects you've worked on? Might be a good source of networking connections, keep up with former coworkers, coffee, lunch, referrals, etc.

[mpweiher]

> I have enormous difficulty establishing professional connections.

> I have been on HN 8.5 years.

I think I can solve that conundrum for you: HN is not the right place for looking for professional connections.

So maybe your problem with getting professional connections is looking for same where none are to be had.

Look elsewhere.

Nothing to do with gender.

[mpweiher]

Maybe people don't want to interact with you because of your behavior?

If, as a man, I am basically an asshole to you, then maybe I don't want to interact with you, period.

And let's be clear: I don't know you, I don't know whether you are a robot or whatever, I just know what you wrote here. And what you wrote here makes me hope not to have to interact with you in real life.

[DoreenMichele]

Maybe people don't want to interact with you because of your behavior?

I appear to be the only woman to have ever made the leaderboard of HN (under a different handle). As far as I can tell, other women are not generally being more warmly welcomed with open arms by the community than I am.

I do everything in my power to examine my behavior and correct any defects I can find. This only goes so far because there are, in fact, larger societal forces at work.

If all women are incapable of getting the results they need, it is disingenuous to blame them as individuals and deny that society has some problem.

[alexandercrohde]

I think this is a really honest point. I'd also like to springboard off of it. As the authors point out, many men are shocked by these stories. I am too. I've been in tech 10 years or so (mostly startups) and have a lot of semi-abusive stuff to report, but none of it that I've seen is gender/sex related.

I agree it's good to share awareness of these problems. However, I think there's nothing more for me to do. None of my female coworkers have ever reported something fishy, and if they did I'd simply report it to HR where I know the situation would be handled.

I also wonder if it'd be productive to stop singling out tech (which seems much less sexist than say, finance).

[msie]

Noting how if two women are talking to each other at a conference, it becomes highly unlikely any guys will walk up and join us. If three women are talking, forget about it.

I would feel intimidated walking up to a group of women because I might be criticized for anything I did. And wouldn't a woman feel intimidated walking up to a group of men too?

[gowld]

Yes, and that's part of the problem to solve.

[msie]

And it's hard enough for me to approach groups of men, let alone groups of women.

[kradeelav]

Most of the time it's not even reacting to something; simply taking the time and effort in mentoring a bright lady is another shield in the bulwark to this nonsense.

As a personal example, I have the deepest respect for one of my former (male, obviously) bosses who took a chance on me and fed me high-profile projects despite being a double/triple minority. (I hate the need to disclaim that last bit, but y'know, take it as illustrating the situation). Not a single interaction was awkward - there were group meetings aplenty, professional one-on-ones, silly one-on-ones where we were both cracking up at corporate shenanigans, water-cooler chats to triage the crazy amount of work we were getting, y'know, normal stuff. Good people exist, and there can be light moments too. Not all of this has to be The Most Srs.

He left a few years later due to natural company reorgs, but that extra limb out is something that's remembered quite dearly. Just standing by wouldn't have cut it.

[oldandtired]

I think you miss the bigger picture here.

As for being clueless, well, here is a suggestion. If you see some man hitting on or trying to dominate a woman, you can approach both and just intrude yourself into the conversation. It should be possible to change the course of the interaction by redirecting things (including asking about some relevant conference or workplace activities). Do it in a way that says to the man that you are ignorant of goals, frustrate the living daylights out of him.

It is irrelevant if the recipient of the unwanted attention is a women or a man, protection and respect is something that should be applied to all. Protecting women (children and other men) from danger is a characteristic of what it is to be a man, that is one of our functions. This is not a function of equality. The same goes for women - if they are in a position to provide protection for other women, children or men, then do so. It is a part of who women are.

Men are deadly and rightly so, they should be. Deadly to protect those who need protecting. Women are fierce and dangerous and rightly so, they should be. Fierce and dangerous to protect those who need protecting.

Men and women are different and that is a good thing. Without each other, this world would be a sadder, darker and more injurious place.

There will be those who have no care for anyone other than themselves, these will abuse and destroy anyone else they can to get ahead. It is up to all of us to counteract these individuals when we have the opportunity.

The base problem is that people do not know how to respect and protect one another. Respect is not about equality, it is about recognising the differences between people (including the differences between men and women) and honouring each other. Equality of the sexes is a farcical mindset. Men and women are complimentary, each providing what the other doesn't have to produce a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts. Each looks at things in a different light and that is to the advantage of us all.

[InclinedPlane]

Simply work to continue educating yourself and try adding new helpful behaviors one at a time. For example, women are much more likely to be interrupted when they are speaking. Learn to recognize this, learn to stop doing it if you're doing so but more importantly learn to stand up for women when it happens. All it takes is "excuse me, I believe X was talking, I'd like to hear what she has to say before moving on". Just like that.

[Aunche]

What happened to just letting people deal with their own problems? A lot of people work with managers and coworkers who treat them unfairly, and you can't do anything about it besides be a good person yourself. Sure, women have an even harder time, but that's going to change as society continues to shift as more culturally progressive. Until then, sexist people are going to continue to be sexist.

[eropple]

I would appreciate if you would explain to me why it is acceptable to ignore injustice because there are other injustices you think you can't do anything about.

[Aunche]

These are relatively small and very personal problems. The media portrays it as some great social injustice when it's really just a few people making rude comments. The author claims that we should all be more supportive of women in CS, but there's already a lot of support. At some point, you just have to wait for people to help themselves.

[urahara]

Women having it harder and sexism are small and very personal problems? It's just not true, things are right the opposite. If there was enough support the described situations would not be the norm. It is not enough support until it completely stops. And even then, women will not be compensated for huge damage already done to them, and will still need support due to this fact.

[droopybuns]

Maybe do what you think is right and be quick to apologize if it is appropriate.

Edit: I am absolutely baffled by the downvotes. What am I missing?

[stewartjarod]

I feel exactly the same way and have faced similar thoughts. If nothing happens I assume no offense was taken and move on I guess... but sometimes that bothers me more.

[gerbilly]

> As a man, I'm clueless on how to help.

If you witness this kind of behaviour, denounce it publicly.