[JSONwebtoken]

Not to mention if your only competitive advantage is price, there always is or will be a source of labor that is cheaper than you. For example, a number of startups I work with are now moving their IT support and basic dev to the Philippines. The quality of work is equally bad or worse, but it's even cheaper than India and the language barrier is comparable.

[myth_drannon]

I noticed a lot of outsourcing work is going to Ukraine and Belarus. India got a head start because of English language but right now many devolopers in Eastern Europe speak fluent English as well.

[menacingly]

I don't think Ukraine is catching up to India, it's just different work. In my experience, the typical job going to Ukraine is a different breed. If you can deal with the time zone and language barrier, they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers.

In fact, C++ devs from that region are the secret sauce to a lot of large codebases I've seen.

[bhouston]

> they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers.

I've noticed this as well. Very strange that it is so "poor" but so talented. I guess that probably won't last.

[qaq]

It's very far from "poor" when IT industry is concerned :). While pay rate is obviously lower vs US it's higher or on par with most EU countries. So for say Senior Java Dev (the pay is much more dependent on a stack vs US) making 66K - 72K which would be about half of what same person would be making in US (outside of SV), but tax rate will be around 3% vs 30% and cost of living is a fraction of what it is in US. When I was living in Ukraine my disposable income was like most of my salary vs in US it's a small fraction of my salary.

[user5994461]

70k gross is more than what a senior developer would get anywhere in Germany or France.

If you really get that much, you've got it better than all western Europe, except London and Zurich.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Parent is still in an inflated labor bubble. In most of the US outside of the major cities it can be a struggle for experienced engineers to break 80K. I had to walk away from a lot of hideously low priced opportunities when I lived in the mid-west.

[qaq]

Yep and Norway has higher pay too but taxes and cost of living kill it.

[eru]

I've gotten offers for somewhat more for Amsterdam (with booking.com).

I didn't take it, because I was getting way more in London at the time.

[strken]

I had a recruiter after me with a €100k senior role in Berlin, I thought the market rate in Germany was nearing SV levels.

[smnrchrds]

True. For that much money you could hire instead in Canada and not deal with language or time zone barriers.

[tschwimmer]

I have a cousin who has a small SaaS business out of Belarus, and he says the top end of what he pays his devs there is $500, which is quite a bit lower than the numbers you're quoting here.

[antonmks]

I'm in Belarus now and I can confirm that a developer with fluent English and a few years of experience gets around $400 a month.

[qaq]

This is relevant to Ukraine in what way? I have unbelievably huge doubt that a Senior Java Developer with fluent English is making 500 in Belarus. Wargaming is Belarus company and they pay 50K in Kiev for Senior Python Developers and have a large office there. First random article on the subject http://goaleurope.com/2016/09/26/15960-software-developers-s... EPAM generally quotes lower salaries vs what they actually pay as they think it helps set expectations in the market.

[jedmeyers]

My guess this is due to the remnants of the good soviet math/science program in schools and universities. Which was originally heavily influenced by Kolmogorov by the way.

[user5994461]

And a lack of job prospects in the region. The decent developers have no alternative but to work in the local outsourcing shops.

[qaq]

There is a good number of product companies that have large offices there (Magento, Samsung, GitLab, Wargaming, Grammarly, Ubisoft and a ton more) plus large outsourcing companies pay well and are generally working on large scale serious products

[walshemj]

Exactly you can see that in the eu the former WP countries with poor economies - causes a massive brain drain. I seem to recall seeing a quote that one of the Baltic stats some huge % f hat years graduates where working abroad.

[nine_k]

The country, as a part of USSR, used to have an accent on industry development. Its higher education used to be free, and largely remains so. In 1990s, it turned very poor, and is still far from average European level. Hence a generation of very advanced developers asking rather moderate money. I hope it will not last, because the level of consumption and wages will rise :)

[hux_]

If they had a weirdly large supply you can be guaranteed an army of recruiters from FB, Amazon, Google et al would be lining up at campuses the way they do in India.

The only limitation these firms face in growing faster is getting their hands on talent.

[user5994461]

Bullshit. Tech companies are not competing for worldwide talents. The companies you quote have at most 3 offices in Europe: London, Zurich, Dublin. The first thing a recruiter will tell you is to abandon your life and your family.

[eru]

> The first thing a recruiter will tell you is to abandon your life and your family.

Do you mean that as in "move" or as in "work long hours"?

Google has at least offices in Germany, too.

[user5994461]

I meant move.

Google has offices in almost every countries but they are administrative offices with almost no employees. If you're a tech worker, you can only be in one of the very few tech locations.

[nine_k]

A reasonable relocation package includes moving the family. I've seen a few firsthand.

[sontek]

What those packages fail to realize is that many of us still value more than just our wife and kids.

Relocating means leaving uncles aunts, cousins, mom, dad, grandma, etc. And any friends you have.

I've had to explain to many recruiters that leaving all my friends and family and my community as a whole is just not an option.

[Clubber]

I've worked with Belarusian developers and they were top notch. Belarus is very close with Russia and is considered the last dictatorship in Europe, so weigh that with a decision.

Having said that, the old Soviet / Eastern Bloc countries are very sharp. They were of course on the other side of the Cold War, which is what birthed most of our modern technology.

[maxxxxx]

I don't know if this is still the case but the Eastern Bloc developers I have met years ago were all super strong in math and other science fundamentals. Very impressive.

[xstartup]

I've had opposite experience. In my case, they were sharp but they were also toxic to be working in a team. So, we had to move our R&D centre to Poland.

[sumedh]

> but they were also toxic to be working in a team

What do you mean?

[Clubber]

I'm not the person you replied to, but I suspect they tend to be very headstrong and don't have a problem telling you that you are wrong with vigor. Then are willing to argue the point for an hour or two.

If you are not accustomed to it, it can be a shock, but it certainly can lead to finding the best solution.

[rosege]

I've worked with some Ukrainian devs and they were very smart guys

[tigershark]

Actually in Philippines pretty much everyone speaks a quite understandable English compared to the average Indian that thinks to be speaking a perfect English while the reality is quite different.

[kartickv]

"Understandable" to you, based on where you live and what dialect of English you speak :)

[Spooky23]

For most folks in the US, understanding a Spanish accent is easier than most Indian accents. This is especially true for lower paid support roles.

[kartickv]

Maybe so, and many Americans aren't understandable to me as an Indian. I just wanted to point out that not being understandable is a statement about the person making it as much as it is about the people it's ostensibly about. Indians, in this case,

[Spooky23]

Totally get it.

I grew up in a weird household, with half my family with strong Irish accents and the other with strong NYC accents. When I moved away from New York, almost nobody could understand me at all for a few weeks. A few teachers thought I was a non-native speaker.