[qaq]

It's very far from "poor" when IT industry is concerned :). While pay rate is obviously lower vs US it's higher or on par with most EU countries. So for say Senior Java Dev (the pay is much more dependent on a stack vs US) making 66K - 72K which would be about half of what same person would be making in US (outside of SV), but tax rate will be around 3% vs 30% and cost of living is a fraction of what it is in US. When I was living in Ukraine my disposable income was like most of my salary vs in US it's a small fraction of my salary.

[user5994461]

70k gross is more than what a senior developer would get anywhere in Germany or France.

If you really get that much, you've got it better than all western Europe, except London and Zurich.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Parent is still in an inflated labor bubble. In most of the US outside of the major cities it can be a struggle for experienced engineers to break 80K. I had to walk away from a lot of hideously low priced opportunities when I lived in the mid-west.

[qaq]

In Ukraine it can not be inflated by definition as there is basically 0 vc money. The companies are profitable and are paying market rates.

[shrewduser]

isn't a lot of the outsourcing connected to western markets and that very VC money?

i think it's all connected you'll find.

[qaq]

I'd say very little of that work is for startups it's more for large financial companies, large established software companies, telecoms, hollywood etc.

[menacingly]

Even in my limited consulting experience, it's not uncommon at all for a sizable org to have a small team in Ukraine.

A couple of times, even though that team does not have an officially important role, you would see stalls on major decisions until the remote team had a chance to weigh in.

[friedButter]

> In most of the US outside of the major cities it can be a struggle for experienced engineers to break 80K

A senior dev can make 80k USD in India (before taxes) working for American, non IT services companies

[wyclif]

Why wouldn't you just work remote and solve that problem?

[cinquemb]

This is what I chose, but there are some tradeoffs: there was a biomedical engineering in Cincinnati, OH company who recruited me that I interviewed with that wanted to hire me (and I was very interested in the work seeing as it was stuff that I did but in another field), but they wanted me work onsite…

After a couple of more years working remote, I may just go work for another lab again because its not too hard to find very interesting work, but the pay sucks (for non-degreed folks).

[qaq]

Yep and Norway has higher pay too but taxes and cost of living kill it.

[eru]

I've gotten offers for somewhat more for Amsterdam (with booking.com).

I didn't take it, because I was getting way more in London at the time.

[walshemj]

I looked at Amsterdam as they had/have some nice tax incentives for expats. And as I had the max no of years in the UK state pension I could built up a Dutch pension as well.

Holland also has Mortgage interest relief so you could rent your UK property out and buy a property in Holland with some nice tax breaks

[eru]

I'm in Singapore now. I'm not using any tax breaks---the taxes are generally low without need for exception.

(There are some tax breaks you (or your clients!) can get for investing in IT, though.)

[qaq]

Yep they recruit actively in Ukraine and pay a bit above but again taxes are way higher.

[strken]

I had a recruiter after me with a €100k senior role in Berlin, I thought the market rate in Germany was nearing SV levels.

[qaq]

I know that of the people that I know who moved to Germany everyone is making about the same as they were at home (which is obviously anecdotal evidence). I have no doubt there are some jobs that pay more at the same time I know people making that kind of money or more in Kiev but it's fairly rare.

[zerr]

It is actually a €120K position - the only company in Berlin paying that amount, with very alarming reviews on Glassdoor - Thinkcell. So the recruiter was trying to low bail you.

[smnrchrds]

True. For that much money you could hire instead in Canada and not deal with language or time zone barriers.

[qaq]

If they could they would. Plus there are costs beyond the actual pay such as cost of heath insurance, admin costs etc.

[tschwimmer]

I have a cousin who has a small SaaS business out of Belarus, and he says the top end of what he pays his devs there is $500, which is quite a bit lower than the numbers you're quoting here.

[antonmks]

I'm in Belarus now and I can confirm that a developer with fluent English and a few years of experience gets around $400 a month.

[qaq]

This is relevant to Ukraine in what way? I have unbelievably huge doubt that a Senior Java Developer with fluent English is making 500 in Belarus. Wargaming is Belarus company and they pay 50K in Kiev for Senior Python Developers and have a large office there. First random article on the subject http://goaleurope.com/2016/09/26/15960-software-developers-s... EPAM generally quotes lower salaries vs what they actually pay as they think it helps set expectations in the market.