[htsh]

The word "niggardly" and it's cognates are not preferred language not just due to their phonetic similarity to a word which unfortunately has awful connotation, but also because sophomoric racists have unfortunately appropriated these terms to have this sort of racial meaning. I should have said "recent etymology" above.

For this reason, magazines and newspapers avoid the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%2... (see the bottom)

I might be dating myself here, but "niggardly" and "niggle" used to be used quite often to imply racial meaning even if none technically exists. Perhaps we shouldn't avoid the term just b/c some ignorant folks used them in racist ways, but in this case I don't see the harm in avoiding it considering there are so many other ways to say the same thing. Unfortunately, once racists use these words to mean something other than their dictionary definitions, you run the risk of raising eyebrows amongst people who may have experienced these terms in these secondary contexts.

In England, this is likely a different story.

And would you really use "niggardly" to describe something in America in 2010? Really?

[p01nd3xt3r]

The fact that you got down voted and he has 12 up votes (currently) has really kind of changed how I see the hacker news community. Socially I always knew i didn't "fit in" with the people on this site but the one thing that connected us all was learning about technology and a love for sharing what we learn. Because of that I thought that there was enough general respect amongst us all not to use a word like "niggle" or "niggardly" and certainly not to defend it's use. I know you all wont agree with me but lets be honest for a minute; I am a black male and if you were in a conversation with me face to face you would not use that term because if you did we would have a problem.

[htsh]

Yeah, same sort of amazement here that people are upset at me for pointing out the controversy (and that you're getting down-voted as well). I am a brown male who grew up in Jamaica, Queens and then New Jersey and saw a lot of interesting mixtures of culture growing up. It was mostly good but I realize that I've seen more racism up close than most of my friends.

I honestly don't blame them though -- they are right by the books and I understand this stance if you've never seen or experienced the words used in that way.

Though the definition has nothing to do with race, but once you know racists have associated the two, what I don't get is why would you get upset at the person that tells you and shows you that racists are doing this?

Check out the dude below -- he's all worked up and offended that I pointed out that people are doing this. And he's offended at me for saying it's troubling and wise to steer clear of that mess. At least he agrees that they are morons.

And yeah this is definitely a bit disturbing. I don't think it's outlandish at all to avoid certain language once racists start using it to hurt people. If he's fine using word that we've experienced racists use to describe African American babies, that's his call. I don't understand why anyone would be offended or flabbergasted that the word itself has some controversy around it. It's not like there aren't other words to use.

[confuzatron]

* Check out the dude below -- he says he's actually offended that I pointed this out*

You're right. Being offended by words is absurd. Doubly-so when they are not even uttered with an offensive meaning. This may be too subtle, so I'll clarify: I was taking the piss out of your position.

[htsh]

No, no need to clarify your position. I understood it the first time, though I wish you'd go back and read what I wrote such that you could at least understand mine. I said that I find the word "troubling" b/c of how racists are using the term & that many newspapers and magazines are avoiding it for the same reason. I didn't write the wiki page or create the controversy, I just pointed it out to you and said I'd avoid it altogether. Apparently that offended you.

I see your argument though and I'm somewhat sympathetic to it. It reminds me of a recent south park where they talked about another word with a lot of controversy around it as it's recent usage is different from it's dictionary definition. I'm all for people using the words they want to use, but I don't think I've done anything wrong by pointing out that ignorant people are mis-using the words to hurt people. And I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are different opinions on this. I think what you don't get is the subtle difference between something troubling me enough for me to find it wise to avoid it and me being offended by it.

[prodigal_erik]

Avoiding "niggardly" is far from a sign of respect. I'm taking a precaution against a listener flying off the handle in ignorance, so it's actually a critique of their education and emotional stability as I perceive them. And it never would have occurred to me that we now have the same problem with "niggle" until reading this.

[confuzatron]

It just blows my mind that there exist people who would discourage the use of the word 'niggle' because of the fact that it is etymologically related to a word that sounds a bit like a derogatory term.

[htsh]

But you're ignoring the part about people using it in racist ways already. That's the rub here:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=niggle

[confuzatron]

Urbandictionary! A palpable hit! I retire from the field of combat...

[htsh]

Out of the 15 definitions, 5 of them are extremely racist.

Do you really doubt that American people have used the word "niggle" in various racist ways and that I have heard it used in these ways? I don't know what else to tell you, but some of these words have ugly histories outside of their dictionary definitions. I cited urbandictionary precisely b/c it's the best resource to illustrate to someone unfamiliar with street usage of some of these words.

There's really no harm in avoiding it. It strikes me odd that people downvote this sort of thing, but it makes me happy that many folks here have never been exposed to this sort of nastiness.

[elblanco]

I've been around the block quite a few times and have never heard "niggle" used in a racist way.

added to long list of things I can't say because somebody got offended by the way somebody else, who I don't know or would care to know, used a word improperly simply because it happened to sound semi-phonetically like a word we are not actually supposed to use and with an emphasis implying discriminatory undertones and without entering the common tongue to a point that persons up and down the economic scale would have ever heard or could relate to

I'd call it a "black list" of words but I have a feeling that might go over wrong in the context.

I really really really hope the word "the" never gets used in a racist rant by some 2-bit undereducated smeg head looking for a phony birth certificate.

sigh

[htsh]

Even Confuzatron isn't denying that it's used in this way. His stance is that he doesn't think it's wise to stop using a word because morons are mis-using it. That I understand and I respect considerably more than a position that simply denies that it's happening because someone hasn't seen it happen.

I'm actually coming around to the Confuzatron position. If we let idiots and racists dictate what words mean, our language suffers for it.

But again there are 5 definitions in the link above. Racist people use the word to describe African American babies or as a substitute for another considerably more offensive word. And again, I didn't say that nobody should use it ever, just that the word evokes a troubling reaction in me because of the racist ways in which it is used. I completely understand that many won't have the same reaction, but my take is it's wise to avoid the words precisely so that you avoid these sorts of awkward conversations.

[confuzatron]

I would appreciate it if you would stop requesting people to not use a harmless word just because there are morons in the US who misuse it. I find it extremely offensive.

Also, stop using the word 'black' please. Some of the definitions of that word on urbandictionary are racist, so therefore according to your laughable criteria the word is off limits.

If people start using the word 'salad' in a racist way, do we have to stop using it?

You have to be trolling. I'm too flabbergasted to continue this discussion.

[elblanco]

You also can't use "teapot" or the name for the martial art "Sambo" or refer to various types of chocolaty deserts either -- just FYI.

Oh, and "Buffie the Vampire Slayer" was a thorn in the side of the African American community for years until it went off the air. "Buffie" is off limits.

You also can't refer to the fruit of the palm tree, or certain types of common darkly colored birds, there's a famous actor from the 30s to the 60s (starred in "It Happened one Night") who's last name is a slur, most species of non-human primates, the Bantu word for "person", certain farming tools, a common nickname for CIA agents, the Hindi word for "day laborer".

Interestingly, some of these, either exactly in or slight variants also cannot be used in front of the Irish, and some slurs go between races. Like "smoked Irish" is a slur for a person of African Descent while a phonetic variant of the "n-word" was originally used to refer to the Irish. So watch that as well around both camps.

edit: yes I'm just having a spot of fun. In a multi-cultural, multi-national message board all have to agree to a social contract, nobody is intentionally racist, and nobody is overly offended if somebody accidentally uses something that might perhaps in some circles in some small regional dialect in some particular part of the world, on occasion, be a slur.

[htsh]

I never requested anyone stop using any word. I said I found the word troubling for what racists have done with it and that I avoid it (and that many magazines and newspapers do the same).

Most offensive words are only such because morons use them as such. If you like it, use it. But don't get offended because someone shows you that people are doing this. To be clear, you're getting offended that I'm "troubled" by the usage of a word which is being used by racists to describe African American babies.

And again I didn't ask people to stop using it. I just said it's troubling due to what some folks have done with it. Nothing you or I say here changes the fact that racists are still (mis)using the word and that there's a controversy around it now. I like that at least we agree that these people doing this are ignorant morons.

And since this is off topic here, if you want to continue this conversation via email, I'd be happy to do so.