[elblanco]

I've been around the block quite a few times and have never heard "niggle" used in a racist way.

added to long list of things I can't say because somebody got offended by the way somebody else, who I don't know or would care to know, used a word improperly simply because it happened to sound semi-phonetically like a word we are not actually supposed to use and with an emphasis implying discriminatory undertones and without entering the common tongue to a point that persons up and down the economic scale would have ever heard or could relate to

I'd call it a "black list" of words but I have a feeling that might go over wrong in the context.

I really really really hope the word "the" never gets used in a racist rant by some 2-bit undereducated smeg head looking for a phony birth certificate.

sigh

[htsh]

Even Confuzatron isn't denying that it's used in this way. His stance is that he doesn't think it's wise to stop using a word because morons are mis-using it. That I understand and I respect considerably more than a position that simply denies that it's happening because someone hasn't seen it happen.

I'm actually coming around to the Confuzatron position. If we let idiots and racists dictate what words mean, our language suffers for it.

But again there are 5 definitions in the link above. Racist people use the word to describe African American babies or as a substitute for another considerably more offensive word. And again, I didn't say that nobody should use it ever, just that the word evokes a troubling reaction in me because of the racist ways in which it is used. I completely understand that many won't have the same reaction, but my take is it's wise to avoid the words precisely so that you avoid these sorts of awkward conversations.

[elblanco]

I acknowledge that you aren't saying "people! stop using Buffie! It's racist!".

But it gets a bit silly when a random group of people, a very small socially marginalized one, can co-opt any random word for a stupid reason and then we all have to tip-toe around it because we might accidentally offend somebody who wears their "offend me" button on the outside.

Check out http://www.reference.com/browse/List_of_ethnic_slurs_by_ethn... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_racial_slurs

It's amazing the length of the list of words that have been historically used as ethnic slurs. If I had to keep a mental rolodex of these words around, I'd probably never be able to talk about pretty much anything. According to the list above, even some cherished dances from part of my cultural heritage are now considered racial epithets as is the first name of President Lincoln!

The reason newspapers and the like try and avoid these words has nothing to do with their usage by racist assholes. If that were the case, all you had to do force newspapers into all kinds of pretzels would be to just start using random verbiage as slurs. The reason they avoid those words is that people get offended by being called those random things. Offended readers can be vocal readers and vocal readers can cause trouble.

If "salad" suddenly started being used as a racial epithet for African-Americans tomorrow by the KKK, would newspapers the world over have to stop using it? That's silliness and that's the point we're collectively trying to make.

BTW http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=niggle&search... the etymology of "niggle" comes from the Norwegian "nigla" - "to be busy with trifles". Urban dictionary is probably the best place to go if all you're trying to be offended by a word.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=salad at least half a dozen uses of the term with a sexual connotation. I can just see my Mother the next time we go to the Country Kitchen Buffet. "'Salad' Bar?! Cover the children's eyes and ears, we're outa this place!!!!"

[htsh]

I read about the etymology -- we concluded that early on in the discussion but the point was that there's a recent usage different from it's dictionary definition. I think urbandictionary is perfect to illustrate this sort of secondary usage.

Also, the salad example is a bit weird as sexual innuendo and racist slurs are beasts of a different kind as there's usually a specific target to ethnic slurs as opposed to innuendo like "laying pipe" or "tossing salad."

But I agree that there's a limit to such sort of political correctness. In this case, for example, it's clear that I'd never ever use "niggardly" in any context whatsoever (and I'd find a writer that does tremendously ignorant) but I can see that the word "niggle" is a bit more on the fence. And I've seen it used on Engadget & other blogs, even if magazines and newspapers won't do it.

Personally, I think it's wise to avoid it as I have heard it used in a tremendously racist way. And again, everyone has different experiences in this regard. I do think, however, that it's a bit odd to get offended when someone points out this kind of usage. At the very least, we know that it's happening.

[elblanco]

Personally, I think it's wise to avoid it as I have heard it used in a tremendously racist way. And again, everyone has different experiences in this regard. I do think, however, that it's a bit odd to get offended when someone points out this kind of usage. At the very least, we know that it's happening.

I just think it's weird to raise the "possible accidental usage of a possibly racist term flag" for a word that very few, if any, people have ever heard used in that context.

It has been educational though. I've never heard that word used in that context -- ever. Now I'll be on the lookout for it because it would have simply passed me by.

FYI, during this exchange I was curious that I could have missed hearing such a usage for the term, I actually just went to google to see if I could find an actual real world example of it being used in such a context (outside of Urban Dictionary) and instead found several hundred uses of it most specifically not being used in the racial context. As newspaper headlines, names of companies, titles of works of literature, online handles, pieces of software, programming frameworks, etc. e.g.

  http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/yes-niggling/
  http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100722/jsp/frontpage/story_12712529.jsp

  http://timesonline.typepad.com/line_and_length/2010/06/longterm-niggle-does-for-bresnan.html

  https://niggleit.com/

etc. etc. etc.

In fact, other than a couple different urban dictionaries and a letter relating a warning by a professor not to use the term because it might get confused with the n-bomb, I actually couldn't find an actual usage of the term that was derogatory -- and I went at least 20 pages in on the search results. If you can find a real, honest to gosh usage, please link it here because I have yet to see one.

"niggardly" on the other hand, I wouldn't use just because it's archaic and sounds silly but also because it's etymology is the same as the n-bomb.

[htsh]

actually "niggardly" and "niggle" have related etymology, neither related to the n-bomb.

[elblanco]

oh apologies, I thought they both derive from the Old English "hneaw". But I see that I am corrected!

I still wouldn't use it though, definitely archaic. It would be like inserting "yonder" and "thee" into my speech.