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I've been around the block quite a few times and have never heard "niggle" used in a racist way.

added to long list of things I can't say because somebody got offended by the way somebody else, who I don't know or would care to know, used a word improperly simply because it happened to sound semi-phonetically like a word we are not actually supposed to use and with an emphasis implying discriminatory undertones and without entering the common tongue to a point that persons up and down the economic scale would have ever heard or could relate to

I'd call it a "black list" of words but I have a feeling that might go over wrong in the context.

I really really really hope the word "the" never gets used in a racist rant by some 2-bit undereducated smeg head looking for a phony birth certificate.

sigh

Even Confuzatron isn't denying that it's used in this way. His stance is that he doesn't think it's wise to stop using a word because morons are mis-using it. That I understand and I respect considerably more than a position that simply denies that it's happening because someone hasn't seen it happen.

I'm actually coming around to the Confuzatron position. If we let idiots and racists dictate what words mean, our language suffers for it.

But again there are 5 definitions in the link above. Racist people use the word to describe African American babies or as a substitute for another considerably more offensive word. And again, I didn't say that nobody should use it ever, just that the word evokes a troubling reaction in me because of the racist ways in which it is used. I completely understand that many won't have the same reaction, but my take is it's wise to avoid the words precisely so that you avoid these sorts of awkward conversations.

Check out http://www.reference.com/browse/List_of_ethnic_slurs_by_ethn... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_racial_slurs

I acknowledge that you aren't saying "people! stop using Buffie! It's racist!".

But it gets a bit silly when a random group of people, a very small socially marginalized one, can co-opt any random word for a stupid reason and then we all have to tip-toe around it because we might accidentally offend somebody who wears their "offend me" button on the outside.

It's amazing the length of the list of words that have been historically used as ethnic slurs. If I had to keep a mental rolodex of these words around, I'd probably never be able to talk about pretty much anything. According to the list above, even some cherished dances from part of my cultural heritage are now considered racial epithets as is the first name of President Lincoln!

The reason newspapers and the like try and avoid these words has nothing to do with their usage by racist assholes. If that were the case, all you had to do force newspapers into all kinds of pretzels would be to just start using random verbiage as slurs. The reason they avoid those words is that people get offended by being called those random things. Offended readers can be vocal readers and vocal readers can cause trouble.

If "salad" suddenly started being used as a racial epithet for African-Americans tomorrow by the KKK, would newspapers the world over have to stop using it? That's silliness and that's the point we're collectively trying to make.

BTW http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=niggle&search... the etymology of "niggle" comes from the Norwegian "nigla" - "to be busy with trifles". Urban dictionary is probably the best place to go if all you're trying to be offended by a word.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=salad at least half a dozen uses of the term with a sexual connotation. I can just see my Mother the next time we go to the Country Kitchen Buffet. "'Salad' Bar?! Cover the children's eyes and ears, we're outa this place!!!!"

I read about the etymology -- we concluded that early on in the discussion but the point was that there's a recent usage different from it's dictionary definition. I think urbandictionary is perfect to illustrate this sort of secondary usage.

Also, the salad example is a bit weird as sexual innuendo and racist slurs are beasts of a different kind as there's usually a specific target to ethnic slurs as opposed to innuendo like "laying pipe" or "tossing salad."

But I agree that there's a limit to such sort of political correctness. In this case, for example, it's clear that I'd never ever use "niggardly" in any context whatsoever (and I'd find a writer that does tremendously ignorant) but I can see that the word "niggle" is a bit more on the fence. And I've seen it used on Engadget & other blogs, even if magazines and newspapers won't do it.

Personally, I think it's wise to avoid it as I have heard it used in a tremendously racist way. And again, everyone has different experiences in this regard. I do think, however, that it's a bit odd to get offended when someone points out this kind of usage. At the very least, we know that it's happening.

I just think it's weird to raise the "possible accidental usage of a possibly racist term flag" for a word that very few, if any, people have ever heard used in that context.

It has been educational though. I've never heard that word used in that context -- ever. Now I'll be on the lookout for it because it would have simply passed me by.

FYI, during this exchange I was curious that I could have missed hearing such a usage for the term, I actually just went to google to see if I could find an actual real world example of it being used in such a context (outside of Urban Dictionary) and instead found several hundred uses of it most specifically not being used in the racial context. As newspaper headlines, names of companies, titles of works of literature, online handles, pieces of software, programming frameworks, etc. e.g.

  http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/yes-niggling/
  http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100722/jsp/frontpage/story_12712529.jsp

  http://timesonline.typepad.com/line_and_length/2010/06/longterm-niggle-does-for-bresnan.html

  https://niggleit.com/

etc. etc. etc.

In fact, other than a couple different urban dictionaries and a letter relating a warning by a professor not to use the term because it might get confused with the n-bomb, I actually couldn't find an actual usage of the term that was derogatory -- and I went at least 20 pages in on the search results. If you can find a real, honest to gosh usage, please link it here because I have yet to see one.

"niggardly" on the other hand, I wouldn't use just because it's archaic and sounds silly but also because it's etymology is the same as the n-bomb.

actually "niggardly" and "niggle" have related etymology, neither related to the n-bomb.

confuzatron 5800 days ago

I would appreciate it if you would stop requesting people to not use a harmless word just because there are morons in the US who misuse it. I find it extremely offensive.

Also, stop using the word 'black' please. Some of the definitions of that word on urbandictionary are racist, so therefore according to your laughable criteria the word is off limits.

If people start using the word 'salad' in a racist way, do we have to stop using it?

You have to be trolling. I'm too flabbergasted to continue this discussion.

You also can't use "teapot" or the name for the martial art "Sambo" or refer to various types of chocolaty deserts either -- just FYI.

Oh, and "Buffie the Vampire Slayer" was a thorn in the side of the African American community for years until it went off the air. "Buffie" is off limits.

You also can't refer to the fruit of the palm tree, or certain types of common darkly colored birds, there's a famous actor from the 30s to the 60s (starred in "It Happened one Night") who's last name is a slur, most species of non-human primates, the Bantu word for "person", certain farming tools, a common nickname for CIA agents, the Hindi word for "day laborer".

Interestingly, some of these, either exactly in or slight variants also cannot be used in front of the Irish, and some slurs go between races. Like "smoked Irish" is a slur for a person of African Descent while a phonetic variant of the "n-word" was originally used to refer to the Irish. So watch that as well around both camps.

edit: yes I'm just having a spot of fun. In a multi-cultural, multi-national message board all have to agree to a social contract, nobody is intentionally racist, and nobody is overly offended if somebody accidentally uses something that might perhaps in some circles in some small regional dialect in some particular part of the world, on occasion, be a slur.

I don't think you understood or read my original point. I never said folks "can't use" any word. I said the word is "troubling" because racists today are using it to describe African American babies. And that magazines and newspapers have avoided the words at question here for the same reason (check out the wiki link about the controversy).

I was just pointing it out. I'm not really offended by it but I do agree with many that the words "niggardly" and "niggle" would preferably not be used where other words suffice. Otherwise you end up in silly conversations like this one.

And Buffie has nothing to do with anything and isn't really a valid analogy though I appreciate the humor here. If you can show me actual usage of those words in the way you describe, then yeah I'd avoid those too. Again, go ahead and use them if you want.

"And Buffie has nothing to do with anything and isn't really a valid analogy though I appreciate the humor here. If you can show me actual usage of those words in the way you describe, then yeah I'd avoid those too. Again, go ahead and use them if you want."

I do hope you see the humor I'm trying to get across. I'd be hard pressed to find a current usage of the word used as a slur. I'm just as hard pressed to find one for "niggle" by that standard btw.

Believe it or not, I do understand where you are coming from, and trying to use humor to address it. But it is a real problem if we let the tail wag the dog (as you put it) with respect to language usage.

starkfist 5800 days ago

The only person I've ever heard use the word "niggle" to describe an african american baby was an african american adult. In fact the "n bomb" itself is now mostly used by black people, with guidos and rednecks following far behind.

But at least you do agree and have heard it's used in this way. It's happening, though, for sure, and how we react is unclear.

I guess the interesting question raised here b/w me and Confuzatron is whether we should avoid certain words once racists appropriate them. I see his point that it's kinda like the tail wagging the dog if we go down that road.

But I do not think it's valid to say that the n-bomb is no longer used in a racist way by racists. And there's a lot of evidence everywhere that says otherwise.

starkfist 5800 days ago

I don't think it is widely used by anyone in that context. The guy I know who said it was joking around.

I never requested anyone stop using any word. I said I found the word troubling for what racists have done with it and that I avoid it (and that many magazines and newspapers do the same).

Most offensive words are only such because morons use them as such. If you like it, use it. But don't get offended because someone shows you that people are doing this. To be clear, you're getting offended that I'm "troubled" by the usage of a word which is being used by racists to describe African American babies.

And again I didn't ask people to stop using it. I just said it's troubling due to what some folks have done with it. Nothing you or I say here changes the fact that racists are still (mis)using the word and that there's a controversy around it now. I like that at least we agree that these people doing this are ignorant morons.

And since this is off topic here, if you want to continue this conversation via email, I'd be happy to do so.