[elecbit]

Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do.

Hear yourself: "the referendum is not legal". Such a nice view of what democracy is.

So willing to vote and say goodbye to this bla-bla-bla-this is not legal, that is not legal.

Good bye opressors. My deceased family in the war the dicator won will be really happy if we can finally separate. Too many open wounds you have never tried to heal.

[euyyn]

> Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do.

It's easier to separate Communists from non-Communists, because each of us gets to vote to only one party, than Catalans from non-Catalans. And even though Communists are a clear minority in Spain, you'd be hard pressed to find one that equates "not having a majority in Congress" with "being victims of a tyranny".

If your family lived under the dictatorship, you should be sensitive to what they (and many others) suffered and fought, to not use lightly words like oppression and tyranny.

[elecbit]

The problem here is that all the inheritants of the Franco dictatorship and their mentailty are still in the power, thanks to the Spanish transition in which the Dictator passed the power to the King. Then promoted a bi-party politics where the minorities would never be able to change anything.

It is not fair and Catalonia is fighting (again) to change it.

[euyyn]

After Franco, Spain has been governed for 6 years by centrists, 21 years by socialists, and 14 years by the PP.

The fantasy of "the Transición didn't take the francoists off the power" would need the likes of Felipe Gonzalez be "mentally francoist". It's no more than a feel-good fantasy.

The fact that you need to convince the majority to change something, while individuals are constitutionally protected, is really how democracies work. If anything, nationalist minorities have wielded much more power in the Spanish Congress than other minorities with more voters, due to quirks of our electoral law.

[lederhosen]

So if they succeed to split would you call it tyranny not to let pockets of Castilian speaking minority areas in Catalonia claim independence? Maybe joining Spain? Where would this end (maybe there are pockets within the pockets within the pockets)? It is a practical shitty situation. Do not make it sound SIMPLE. Do not use the word tyranny when it does not apply.

And the rich leaving the poor seems like a right wing thing to do. Maybe Franco would agree that the smaller "upper class" need protection from the tyranny of the poor. Or maybe money is not the biggest part of the equation, maybe it is just a nationalistic disgrace of the same kind that forced Castilian as language onto Basques and Catalans during Franco. Maybe we will get a Franco like situation in Catalonia where minorities are not allowed to teach/speak Castilian. I think that would be a disgrace for every decent person killed by the butchers of Franco and other "nationalists".

And what is the lesson to learn from all this, should all nations start to force minorities to speak the national language just because if we give minorities relative freedom and power they will claim independence? And possibly treat our minorities left bad?

[monort]

What's wrong with independence of small groups? The more governments - the more competition. Why are we against big monopolies in every area, except the state services?

[pvaldes]

> What's wrong with independence of small groups?

The extinction

Being smaller is stupid when you need to compete with much bigger countries in the rest of the world. It doesn't work in the practise.

[yxhuvud]

In that case, ideally you could still be as united as you need to be under the umbrella of the European Union.

[int_19h]

That's something for people to decide for themselves, though.

I mean, by the same argument, why not let someone annex Spain? If bigger is better...

[monort]

There is nothing wrong with extinction of a government and replacement by more successful government, if it happens amicably - it's competition. Just like with corporations, surely you are not worried about extinction of small firms, and sometimes that small firms outcompete the big corporations.

[elecbit]

Then, let us Catalans be stupid and go to extintion ourselves. We will probably be fine. If you want us to be in Spain, please seduce us instead of forbid us everything.

I haven't heard of any new independent country asking to be part again of the former one.

[pvaldes]

> if you want us to be in Spain, please seduce us

Yeah, the tiresome "seduce us (with mo' fresh money)" argument again.

I have a better idea, why you don't try to seduce me instead to call me thief (Spain stole us) and abuser (Spain oppress us and do not let us be free) and hit me all the time with a new surrealist occurrence (don't buy spanish products, here are a list of the evil companies that you must avoid if you want to be a good citizen)?

In the last 60 years, you have been offered a lot of gifs and privileges (that by the way, I don't enjoy), and is never enough. You are never, ever, happy. Always creating drama around, like an old crazy theater lady past her prime, always demanding to be loved, but giving in return dry sarcasm and a single uncaring kiss by christmas (when there are cameras around).

So thanks, but not thanks. I will pass this time. You are not so irresistible as you think and not so beautiful as you were 20 years ago. I deserve something better.

> I haven't heard of any new independent country asking to be part again of the former one.

This does not bother me, but there is always a first time for everything.

[stale2002]

It sounds an awful lot like things aren't working out then. Perhaps a split is better?

Then you don't have to deal with them.

A vote is happening. There is nothing that the government can do to stop it unless they send in the tanks and start killing millions.

[kilburn]

> In the last 60 years, you have been offered a lot of gifs and privileges (that by the way, I don't enjoy), and is never enough.

Name three "gifts/privileges" that Catalonia has been given/granted and you don't enjoy, please.

[lederhosen]

Where does the recursion end?

Should Catalonia accept independence from pockets where the majority wants to be Spanish?

[monort]

Surely Catalonia should accept independence of Spaniards pockets, though I realize that in practice they probably won't. Why do you think there should be a forced limit for recursion?

[NetStrikeForce]

The recursion ends where people wants it to end.

Can your neighborhood struck trade deals with India? Then maybe your neighborhood wants to team up with others around to do that... See where I'm going?

[bonzini]

Could Catalunya strike trade deals with the EU even?

[NetStrikeForce]

Sure it can.

It already meets all the requirements to be a member, EU law is ingrained in Catalan law, it has the ability to negotiate and state structures. It just needs to be an independent country.

It would be better to be in the EU, but meanwhile that happens some bilateral trade deals with the EU should be relatively easy to accomplish.

If you're referring to recognition as a country, that's a separate and huge discussion. If Catalonia is not recognised it can't take its part of Spanish debt with it (might be up to 20% of the total) while being a rebel region not paying taxes and maybe under military occupation. How is Spain, which is still in critical condition with a debt of the size of its GDP, going to fare? This month Spain had to get a loan to pay pensions. This month!

So if Spain loses 20% of its GDP while keeping all the debt, how is it going to survive? And if Spain can't pay and falls, what's going to happen to the EU? You thought Brexit was bad? This is much worse!

A situation were the outcome of a YES vote is negotiated and Catalonia pays his dues is a win-win for every stakeholder: Catalans, Catalonia, Spaniards, Spain and the EU. Striking trade deals after that is pure pragmatism.

Just go through old papers about Slovenia or even the Baltics. It's all about realpolitik at the end and Catalonia has to be able to show its value to the world.