[tpallarino]

Wow. So if I'm understanding the article correctly, it says that tribalism occurs both naturally and in simulations. However, even though this is the case, we should despise tribalism for some reason that is frankly not exactly clear.

does the depth of cultural self-loathing know no bound?

[jameslk]

Sex is a natural desire, but it's probably a good thing we have laws against those who force their way onto others whenever they're horny. Just because it's natural doesn't necessarily mean it's best.

[micheljones]

You are positing a false dichotomy here. Equivalent conclusion would be that 'sex is a natural malfunction and needs to be removed'.

[crispinb]

> does the depth of cultural self-loathing know no bound

I'm puzzled by this (possibly rhetorical?) question. Which culture is supposed to be loathing itself here?

[raverbashing]

Something that would be called "western/christian/european" civilization

[jacobolus]

One big point of “Western civilization” (religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance; the classical liberal / republican tradition with religious toleration and representative government; science; European legal traditions with an independent judiciary; economic liberalism; down through to the Geneva Conventions; the UN and similar institutions; the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; universal education; universal suffrage; etc.) is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law and more just and egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes.

[chongli]

One big point of “Western civilization” ... is rejecting tribalism

It isn't really rejecting tribalism, it's something more akin to the 'FairBot' tribe from the article. It is a way of selecting members based on adherence to a very complex set of tendencies and behaviours; in other words, a Shibboleth. It's been more successful in the recent term because it has succeeded in identifying tribe members independent of ethnic origin. It absolutely does not shy away from rejecting people who fail at performing the Shibboleth and it doesn't care if those people are the direct descendents of tribe members. Exhibit A: the number of people in prison in the West.

[digitalsigil]

> It isn't really rejecting tribalism, it's something more akin to the 'FairBot' tribe from the article.

I was going to say this exact same thing --- that, as far as the simulation understands, FairBot is just a more complicated Shibboleth.

To properly perform our Shibboleth is to have loved other people, then develop and understanding of murder/genocide and be given an opportunity to express your feeling about it. If these things don't bother you, then you've failed the Shibboleth and need to be killed (or imprisoned) so that you don't damage our society.

And, while our society certainly doesn't implement this perfectly, this is the best you can do. The shibboleth has worked so well because, unless you're a sociopath, it comes out of the root of your being. In my mind, the experience of transcendent love is so powerful that we are willing to reject ANY destruction of it, even if it doesn't directly affect us (i.e. I wouldn't kill a mother because, having a mother myself, I know it would destroy a very power human bond).

[raverbashing]

> religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance

(just because I didn't know that word) Mores: "The accepted traditional customs and usages of a particular social group."

> is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law

Agreed. You just have to convince the other "tribes" to do that as well. And the more people are forced to accept other people from a more distant (not geographical distance) culture, the stronger the backlash is

> more egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes

How many forced marriages, FGMs and honour killings are happening now under the auspice of western secular governments/societies?

[jacobolus]

As far as I can tell many cultures throughout the world are changing extremely rapidly in response to collapse of agrarian and nomadic societies, urbanization, education and economic opportunity for women, birth control, proliferation of communication technology, and so on. There are also many problems related to foreign corporate actors with no local accountability, air and water pollution, environmental destruction, massive distribution of small arms, the international narcotics trade, etc.

I’m not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about autocratic regimes propped up by western powers for short-sighted self-serving geopolitical reasons? Which western/secular governments and which honor killings are you talking about?

[raverbashing]

> As far as I can tell many cultures throughout the world are changing extremely rapidly in response to collapse of agrarian and nomadic societies, urbanization, education and economic opportunity for women, birth control, proliferation of communication technology, and so on.

Agreed. When they have the chance

> Are you talking about autocratic regimes propped up by western powers for short-sighted self-serving geopolitical reasons?

While propped up regimes are often undemocratic, the anti-secularism (which is different from simply "religious aligned" - like most republicans, as an example) and other factors do not come from it.

Though I agree auspice is a bad word to describe it, as governments are indifferent rather than supportive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41193899

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-ne...

[crispinb]

Hardly that I would think. The anti-tribal direction of modern world history originated in the Enlightenment, which, although catalysed by contacts with Muslim, Indian and Chinese civilisations, was nothing if not profoundly 'Western'.

[vikiomega9]

How is "western/christian/european" different from "western"?

EDIT: the current framework of international order has roots in Westphalian notions of nation states, which is indeed christian and european.

[gt_]

>So if I'm understanding the article correctly, it says that tribalism occurs both naturally and in simulations.

My take was that the article does not quite make these claims, but uses the simulations to model implications of them.

>we should despise tribalism for some reason that is frankly not exactly clear

We should move beyond tribalism because of it's inherence of prejudice.

[PeterisP]

It does seem that the article makes these claims - it describes a particular experiment where they unexpectedly discovered that tribalism emerged as the dominant (most successful) strategy in a competitive game they simulated.

[duckingtest]

What these simulations show is that tribalism is a winning strategy. Which means not following it leads to death.

>We should move beyond tribalism because of it's inherence of prejudice.

Considering an inherent property of a winning strategy evil means your code is non-optimal and is inevitably going to disappear.

[gt_]

It is a 'winning strategy' only for the winners. We can just as well call it a 'losing strategy'. As the players become more intelligent, they are able to cooperate better and everyone wins, meaning cooperation is even 'more winning'. That is, unless your intentions here are something like eugenics.

[duckingtest]

It's only possible for everyone to win if basic resources are infinite. Tribalism is the only pareto optimal strategy for finite resources, especially land on Earth.

[benfle]

Other things that occur both naturally and in simulations: revenge, jealousy, violence, territoriality, oligarchy, thumb sucking...

[jamesrcole]

Tribalism tends to mean an "us vs them" attitude with emotive, knee-jerk dislike and demonising of "them", plus a disdain for constructive criticism of "us". I think history provides plenty of evidence of this and of how toxic it is.

[golemotron]

The irony is that the people who complain loudest about tribalism (nationalism, xenophobia) in contemporary political culture display exactly those attitudes toward people they disagree with.

Anyone who thinks tribalism can be eliminated lacks self awareness or a least a mirror.

[jamesrcole]

That's definitely an issue.

Regarding your second point, it's not a matter of the level of tribalism staying the same vs completely eliminating it. I think the overall levels have been reduced over the centuries, and there are people out there that are pretty non-tribalistic in outlook.