[jacobolus]

One big point of “Western civilization” (religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance; the classical liberal / republican tradition with religious toleration and representative government; science; European legal traditions with an independent judiciary; economic liberalism; down through to the Geneva Conventions; the UN and similar institutions; the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; universal education; universal suffrage; etc.) is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law and more just and egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes.

[chongli]

One big point of “Western civilization” ... is rejecting tribalism

It isn't really rejecting tribalism, it's something more akin to the 'FairBot' tribe from the article. It is a way of selecting members based on adherence to a very complex set of tendencies and behaviours; in other words, a Shibboleth. It's been more successful in the recent term because it has succeeded in identifying tribe members independent of ethnic origin. It absolutely does not shy away from rejecting people who fail at performing the Shibboleth and it doesn't care if those people are the direct descendents of tribe members. Exhibit A: the number of people in prison in the West.

[digitalsigil]

> It isn't really rejecting tribalism, it's something more akin to the 'FairBot' tribe from the article.

I was going to say this exact same thing --- that, as far as the simulation understands, FairBot is just a more complicated Shibboleth.

To properly perform our Shibboleth is to have loved other people, then develop and understanding of murder/genocide and be given an opportunity to express your feeling about it. If these things don't bother you, then you've failed the Shibboleth and need to be killed (or imprisoned) so that you don't damage our society.

And, while our society certainly doesn't implement this perfectly, this is the best you can do. The shibboleth has worked so well because, unless you're a sociopath, it comes out of the root of your being. In my mind, the experience of transcendent love is so powerful that we are willing to reject ANY destruction of it, even if it doesn't directly affect us (i.e. I wouldn't kill a mother because, having a mother myself, I know it would destroy a very power human bond).

[raverbashing]

> religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance

(just because I didn't know that word) Mores: "The accepted traditional customs and usages of a particular social group."

> is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law

Agreed. You just have to convince the other "tribes" to do that as well. And the more people are forced to accept other people from a more distant (not geographical distance) culture, the stronger the backlash is

> more egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes

How many forced marriages, FGMs and honour killings are happening now under the auspice of western secular governments/societies?

[jacobolus]

As far as I can tell many cultures throughout the world are changing extremely rapidly in response to collapse of agrarian and nomadic societies, urbanization, education and economic opportunity for women, birth control, proliferation of communication technology, and so on. There are also many problems related to foreign corporate actors with no local accountability, air and water pollution, environmental destruction, massive distribution of small arms, the international narcotics trade, etc.

I’m not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about autocratic regimes propped up by western powers for short-sighted self-serving geopolitical reasons? Which western/secular governments and which honor killings are you talking about?

[raverbashing]

> As far as I can tell many cultures throughout the world are changing extremely rapidly in response to collapse of agrarian and nomadic societies, urbanization, education and economic opportunity for women, birth control, proliferation of communication technology, and so on.

Agreed. When they have the chance

> Are you talking about autocratic regimes propped up by western powers for short-sighted self-serving geopolitical reasons?

While propped up regimes are often undemocratic, the anti-secularism (which is different from simply "religious aligned" - like most republicans, as an example) and other factors do not come from it.

Though I agree auspice is a bad word to describe it, as governments are indifferent rather than supportive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41193899

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-ne...

[jacobolus]

Your first two links seem like isolated examples of crimes for law enforcement to handle. Your third link is about migration of women have been mutilated to England. I’m not sure what you are trying to say with it, or what it has to do with secular western government.

If we want to stop female genital mutilation in Eritrea, Ethiopia, and Somalia (where the women under discussion are migrating from), it seems to me – though I am certainly not an expert on the region – that the way forward is to stop flooding them with small arms, work on improving the local economy and its connections to the outside world, work on improving the political and economic power of local women, not turn a blind eye to ethnic violence, stop uncritically supporting the awful Saudi monarchy, work to empower respected people in the region to speak out against such practices, put pressure on local governments and courts to change their laws and enforcement, and so on.

Trying to impose cultural changes on people by external force is historically not a productive method.

[raverbashing]

> Trying to impose cultural changes on people by external force is historically not a productive method.

Correct, but tolerating cultural practices incompatible with modern societies is causing local populations to feel frustrated (not to mention the imposition of guilt onto them).

[boomboomsubban]

From your examples, you only view this as an issue when it's foreign cultural practices. Honor killings are an extreme form of domestic violence, do you feel the same frustration and guilt over all the ~800,000 incidents in the US every year?