[stcredzero]

I am also working on an MMO. It's a space game. My spin is that everything in this game will be emergent. The players can design and play anything in this game, or it will evolve through genetic algorithms. I've worked out how to do most of this. I'm still working out how to evolve NPC ship AIs, but that's not the most important.

Also, everything in this game will be scriptable. Users will be able to create programs to control anything, then license those programs to other users to make money. They will also be able to license designs. Exponential proliferation of designs and scripts is prevented by limiting designs per user to some maximum number.

Basically, I'm going to make a MMO, where the developers are out of the business of creating content. The users create the most compelling content anyhow. Oh, and the "gold farmers" -- I'm going to have them writing content for me! You can't beat market forces. Better to co-opt them.

You can think of this as Second Life in Space, with much easier implementation requirements.

[euccastro]

I suppose you're conscious that there are a few huge cans of worms in your way. Expect QA and customer service to become more 'interesting' than in the typical MMO. Player scripting will tend to alienate nonhackers (script trading notwithstanding). Empowering players as you suggest in other comments (letting them run whole factions) reduces the pressure to socialize, which is the main driver of player retention.

Surprising as it may sound, the downsides that many MMOs have as games actually help them succeed as the glorified social networks most of them are. Boredom and disempowerment bring people together. As the cliché goes, they come for the game and stay for the community.

That said, I love your concept and I'd definitely give that game a try. I wouldn't consider playing a MMO that runs on rails and where I can't automate away my repetitive tasks. I think you'd get a smallish but interesting and loyal player base. Maybe it could reddit out from there if that's what you want; otherwise I believe it would work great as a lifestyle business.

Is it on purpose that you don't provide contact info in your profile? I'd love to exchange some thoughts with you (see address in my profile.) I worked for a few years in what is today the leading commercial space MMO, and I've been entertaining some ideas on those lines too.

[stcredzero]

Player scripting doesn't seem to alienate people in Second Life. Maybe there's something I don't know. Scripting will not be required to play. You will be able to buy scripts from weapon developers, who will finally be worthy of the name.

Faction players will need pilots. Their AI drones will never be a match for human pilots in player ships. On the other hand, pilots will need factions -- otherwise it will be hard to generate enough wealth for the very best high tech equipment.

[euccastro]

TBH I've never played Second Life, but from what I've read it's more of a social sandbox than a direct competition. The space setting is more associated with combat and domination. It seems more likely that nonhackers will call foul on any disadvantage, real or perceived.

In my experience advocating player scripting in a MMO forum, I've observed that there is much prejudice against real life technical skills. Players seem to have less of a problem with other real life factors having an impact. Factors such as social skills or ability/willingness to spend more time on the game. I think this is because it takes technical skills to evaluate the true impact of mechanics involving technical skills, in order to come to the conclusion that they are mostly benign.

OTOH, I've also observed that some nontechnical people actually like scriptability and others can be convinced (with some difficulty; they often assume you're trying to skew the game towards your abilities for the sake of getting an edge) if you have the chance. And of course, people that can program absolutely love the feature. Unless you start with millions and a recognized IP, I think your best bet is making some underserved audience love your game rather than try to please the mainstream.

So I was playing devil's advocate here. As I said, I myself would love player scripting, and if I was to make a MMO, I'd bite the bullet. But whatever you do, I think these are factors to take into account.

[derefr]

Do you still have humanoid "player characters" in your game, or is your avatar simply a [set of] ships? I've always wished for a space game where each "ship" is a thriving colony all on its own, with hundreds of players with their own quarters, and an intense rivalry over who will be "captain", "navigator" and so on (unless it's some sort of military ship, but there could still be a mutiny!) If you are the ship[s], this gets a little less poignant.

Also, watching sci-fi TV shows for a long time, I've come to appreciate the visual value of "away missions"/shore-leave. It's boring staring at a starfield for hours at a time (even with cool nebular effects.) Is there a way to land on planets that have life on them (that is, not boring ol' asteroids) and perhaps stay there, living off the land for a while where no one can find you but for your radio pollution?

Sorry if this is all irrelevant to your particular implementation, but I've been planning my own similar venture for a while.

[stcredzero]

I would like to have player avatars in the future. We will start out with ships, however.

[andyn]

Okay, you may be named stcredzero and it may be April fools day, but that sounds like interesting stuff. Do you have anything to show yet?

[stcredzero]

I've been named stcredzero for a very long time.

[dood]

Wow, that's pretty much what I'd be doing if I had infinite free time and much deeper knowledge of CS.

Have you written any more about this anywhere? I'd be very interested to read about your game & systems design and the process you're going though.

[stcredzero]

Nope, this is the first time I've spilled the beans.

[dood]

I heartily encourage you put fingers to keyboard if you can spare the time (and be sure to submit here if you do).

It strikes me as a project of such complexity and delicacy that the risks involved in publicising some of your ideas are much outweighed by the potencial gains from starting a public dialog. (though I would say that, as I'd love to read about it ;)

[brentr]

I find the concept of Second Life interesting, but it is difficult to use. If you could create something along the same lines of Second Life that is easier to use and eliminates the lag problem, it would definitely be something I would try.

I found Second Life after reading about Asperger's Syndrome and the communication problems associated with the syndrome that Second Life seems to break down. (No, I don't have Asperger's Syndrome; I am just an prolific reader.) What I was fascinated with is the variety of user created items and the pseudo-economy that developed within the world.

If you could create something like Second Life, it would definitely be used.

[stcredzero]

It will be like Second Life, but everything will be a Ship, an inert object in space, or an Item to be used aboard a ship. Users will be able to design Ships and Items, but only after they have built and supplied a special ship outfitted as a Research Facility and operated it for a certain period of time. Designs will be vetted at first, but this will transition to a Slashdot-like moderation system.

The galaxy will be procedurally generated. There will be millions if not billions of star systems. You will not be able to bookmark arbitrary locations in space, however. (Hyperspace is extremely chaotic and changing, so any jump to a coordinate in "Real" space will always be randomized and never precise.) You must drop an item called a "beacon" to be able to warp back to a specific location. A user will only be able to afford a certain number of beacons.

[brentr]

Do you intend to code a realistic physics system into this game? If so, will you be using a physics engine that has the concept of relativity built into it?

[stcredzero]

Relativity? Not right now. You will be able to fly a ship in "Newtonian" mode, but with a speed limit (due to collision implementation issues.) The ship will also fly in "inertialess" mode which will be like the way ships fly in Star Wars. Performance of ships in "inertialess" mode will be comparable to that in Newtonian, just with less flexibility.

One interesting twist to ship design, will be that the shape of your ship will actually change its stats in meaningful ways. For example, if you have a ship that uses armor for protection, then having the hull of your ship angled like an arrowhead will give you higher armor values from the forward direction. (And much weaker from the sides and rear.) Having a ship which is longer will also improve the performance of axial mount weapons. However, increased length, size and mass also have drawbacks, as it will reduce your maximum turning rate and the rate at which you can change angular momentum. Components will require some internal volume, so you won't be able to make an invulnerable Death Pencil.

The game will have elements of "space opry" and not just have hard science fiction. I want people to experience the thrill of epic space battles. There will also be exploration and trade.

[randallsquared]

Please use a toolkit that has Mac support. Thank you. :)

[stcredzero]

Currently, I'm using Panda3D, which is compilable on OSX, though it's not supported in teh main branch yet.

[Tichy]

Curious: how do you get the 3d models? I just wonder how much effort it is to create 3d models for a game. I am not afraid of 3d programming, but the modeling is a different kind of beast...

[stcredzero]

Right now, I'm using Wings 3d for polygonal models as in the old Elite game. I'm not an artist. I'm going to hire one or two artists to make it look good.

[carterschonwald]

for the NPC ai, I recommend having the online part of the algorithm not use GAs, but just some sort of statistically learning on decision trees, GAs done right are tricky, and its worth pointing out that they're basically an optimization technique best used when the problem domain doesn't have enough structure to use other techniques which provide much stronger guarantees.

[carterschonwald]

I have to say though, that having an MMO which has an open content creation system and is well architectured would be fun

[stcredzero]

What I mean when I say that the "users make the best content anyway" is that most people just ignore game-company produced "content" or just figure out how to blow through it to get the items. What takes the place of such "content" is the real content -- players vying against players to achieve their own varied and often conflicting goals. What players have done to me and with me has excited, terrified, exhilarated, and entertained me 50X more than any game content ever has.

There are certain elements of "content" for which there will be "structured content creation." Players will be able to design new items. They will be able to play as whole factions if they want. (Using a distinct RTS style of play, controlling an entire economy of autonomous drones.) But there will be no drudgery of missions, no mining, no leveling up, no camping. Only either the action of combat, or the management of wealth generating economies.

[kirubakaran]

Awesome! Please add me as a beta tester (gmail kirubakaran).

[24pfilms]

It sounds totally great....interested to see Rev 1.

[dhimes]

That idea totally rocks!