[Zahlmeister]

This article is total bullshit and so is the "dual education" model.

"Duale Ausbildung" has nothing to do with universities, if you go that route you spend up to four years working at (on average) well below 1000€ while attending a government school that teaches at a rather low level. The government has to subsidize the income of those people and the employer, in some cases.

https://www.azubiyo.de/gehalt/

Worse, if you don't buy into the "dual education" thing, you can't get most of these jobs. We're not talking about great jobs either, it's most jobs that don't require university education. A lot of that is stuff you could be trained for on-the-job in six months or less.

Don't trust German unemployment statistics, it's basically the government paying at every end to have people employed at all costs and often at very low pay.

Also, don't buy into the German educational model, it's one of the most discriminatory systems in the world, even though it is "free" on paper, it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university. We have parents suing the teachers of ten-year-olds for the grades they give, because of the impact it can have on their careers.

http://www.focus.de/familie/rechte/das-kind-aufs-gymnasium-k...

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/voices/hard-look-disc...

[jojoo]

> We're not talking about great jobs either, it's most jobs that don't require university education. A lot of that is stuff you could be trained for on-the-job in six months or less.

Have you actually learned a real craft, in germany, or looked at it's curriculum? Because they learn a lot more than could be thought in 6 weeks. You could argue that they won't need it for the things their employer needs them to do when they work, but they learn it anyway. If they switch jobs later they won't need that much training.

Example: If you learn as an Electrician for Energy and Houses at a big construction company, the only thing you might do is chopping cable canals and maybe wiring wall sockets. Both could be learned in 6 Weeks, no question.

But at the Berufsschule you still learn all the other stuff, for an example how to wire electrical Garage doors. If you later decide to switch Jobs, you'll be prepared.

> Also, don't buy into the German educational model, it's one of the most discriminatory systems in the world, even though it is "free" on paper, it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university.

Being a teacher at the very bottom of the german school system, the school formerly known as Sonderschule I 100% agree.

[Zahlmeister]

> Have you actually learned a real craft, in germany, or looked at it's curriculum? Because they learn a lot more than could be thought in 6 weeks. You could argue that they won't need it for the things their employer needs them to do when they work, but they learn it anyway. If they switch jobs later they won't need that much training.

Yes, they learn a lot of stuff they won't need for the actual job they will perform. If they switch jobs, they probably won't need it either, unless it's a very related job. For instance, if they become a painter, they learn all kinds of painting techniques that they will never apply. That's all fine and dandy, except if they just want to work painting houses, why they have to spend three years as an apprentice?

> But at the Berufsschule you still learn all the other stuff, for an example how to wire electrical Garage doors. If you later decide to switch Jobs, you'll be prepared.

If you already knew the one thing, chances are you could've quickly learned the other thing as well. Otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it

[jojoo]

> why they have to spend three years as an apprentice?

Have you actually looked at a curricula? A lot of it is repetition from school stuff. Sure the Electricians in my example learned in 7th class how to transform Volt to mV or kV. But they often can't reproduce this when they start their apprenticeship (imo the schools are to blame here).

If apprentices don't have problems with that Kind of Math, can write readable reports they generally get a Lehrzeitverkürzung up to 1.5 Years.

Source: I actually read curricula of Apprenticeships, talk with colleagues who work in the Berufsschule if my pupils might have a shot at a apprenticeship (they never do)

Besides that we have longer apprenticeships 1) so that the "german workforce" is more skilled in general. 2) so that if they choose to become Meister to be their own boss they don't need to learn all the extra stuff.

> If you already knew the one thing, chances are you could've quickly learned the other thing as well.

That does certainly apply to abstract things but it doesn't apply well to craftsmanship. To quote RMS: A if-construct does not generate friction against the for loop. But if you bend the cables in the wrong radius, 20 years later when the plastic of the wire-insulation starts degenerating, you might run into problems.

> YAGNI comparing humans to programs? i like to live in a world with skilled human beings that can realize at least some of their potential. an extended apprenticeship might help some to do that.

[Zahlmeister4]

Getting that extra education may make more sense for trades like electricians, it makes zero sense for salespeople or cooks or house painters or hair stylists and yet all these people are forced into three years of underpaid labor and crappy government schooling.

Even if the German system was better (which it isn't), it makes you wonder how all the other countries in the world are going by without it. German workers are relatively underpaid even after going through the rites, that's what makes us competitive - not the fact that our workers have more skills than they need.

> so that if they choose to become Meister to be their own boss they don't need to learn all the extra stuff

That makes no sense. Most never become a "Meister", but even those that do could learn that stuff when and if they need it.

[Thamiel]

> This article is total bullshit and so is the "dual education" model.

This article is about the american system, and compared to taking on student debt, earning an apprentices' salary is an improvement.

>A lot of that is stuff you could be trained for on-the-job in six months or less.

Well, german workmanship has a good reputation internationally, so I would be careful to meddle with a system that produces adequate results.

> Also, don't buy into the German educational model, it's one of the most discriminatory systems in the world, even though it is "free" on paper, it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university. We have parents suing the teachers of ten-year-olds for the grades they give, because of the impact it can have on their careers.

"One of the most discriminatory systems in the world"? really? Education is free including university, low-income families can get tutors for their children paid for by the Arbeitsamt. About "weeding out people": Not everybody has the ability to study at a university, so to prevent people from wasting years of their life and paying the opportunity cost that goes with it, it is best to give those people a clear signal which career paths are open to them and which are not. The parents suing the schools in the link you provided are doing their children a disservice. If you force a child onto a school type above its level of competence, the child will suffer. Being the worst in class is not exactly good for the developing psyche, having no free time because the child needs to study and visit tutors simply to survive academically also takes its toll. And to what end? To start an apprenticeship with abitur? To study at university for a couple of years until you fail to many exams to continue?

[lispm]

Does not seem that you know much about German education.

Duales Studium is the equivalent dual track education for University education. The company I work for participates since several years and they are very happy to do so.

[Zahlmeister]

I probably know more than you, or at least I have better reading comprehension:

"By contrast, countries like Germany pursue a “dual educational” model that blends classroom education with on-the-job training through apprenticeships, equipping young people not bound for university with practical labor-market skills. From the beginning of the journey from school to work, dual-system participants establish close relationships with employers. Companies sign contracts with young people (typically around age 15 or 16) and provide them an hourly wage just below that of an entry-level worker. On-the-job training typically comprises two-thirds of the curriculum in the dual system."

This is clearly referring to "Duale Ausbildung", not "Duales Studium". The vast majority of people that study at university ("Studium") never do "Duales Studium", that's more of a novelty.

[lispm]

Dual education in Germany is not only about apprenticeships. Your knowledge seems to be even more limited than the author's.

There are several dual education tracks, some advanced ones exist since the 70s. Clearly not a novelty. It's also not about the 'majority' of people, since the German education system is diverse and does provide various alternatives to the usual/classical University education.

There are even many dual education offerings which integrate Ausbildung and Studium.

I personally hired people who were from dual track education in software development a decade ago.

[Zahlmeister]

You're moving the goalpost.

The article is referring to "Duale Ausbildung", which works as I described and has nothing to do with university education.

"Duales Studium" in the modern sense is a novelty, clocking in at less than 4% in 2014 (but growing). http://www.zeit.de/2014/20/duales-studium

The article does talk about the majority, that's the whole point. "Duale Ausbildung" and regular "Hochschule/Fachhochschule" are the core of the German system. Whatever else there is isn't really relevant to the debate.

[lispm]

Check your top comment.

Duales Studium is hardly a novelty. As I said it's actually from the 70s.

What is relevant to the debate? Relevant is that the Dual Education model im Germany is diverse and offers different tracks for advanced degrees. The Ausbildung is not the end of education, but for many it is the entry into further adavnced education offerings.

Let's look at your original claims:

* the dual education is bullshit

Says it all.

* Duale Ausbildung" has nothing to do with universities

In reality the Ausblidung enables further education offerings.

* Worse, if you don't buy into the "dual education" thing, you can't get most of these jobs.

Ensures that people actually know something about their jobs, beyond training on the job.

* Don't trust German unemployment statistics

A rather useless recommendation.

* it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university.

That's wrong. The dual education model addresses people who want a more practical education. Making a choice does not mean 'weeding out'. The education model allows people later to move on to more advanced education tracks and many do.

So your arguments were mostly unfounded and failed to see the dual education system in the broader context.

[Zahlmeister4]

> Duales Studium is hardly a novelty. As I said it's actually from the 60s.

The modern concept "Duales Studium" is both a novelty and a fringe. If you want to keep arguing semantics, I don't care.

> In reality the Ausblidung enables further education offerings.

Did I claim otherwise? To put in other words: Unless you have an "Ausbildung" or an "(Fach)Abitur" you are barred from further education.

> Ensures that people actually know something about their jobs, beyond training on the job.

It enforces that people know things they don't need to know. It prevents people willing to work but unwilling to spend three years as an underpaid apprentice from taking part in the market. A 25% drop-out rate for "Berufsausbildung" speaks for itself.

Out of cursiosity: Did you ever actually do a "Berufsausbildung"? University graduates are entering the market as full employees with zero actual work experience. What gives?

> A rather useless recommendation.

No, it's crucial. If you correlate low youth unemployment with the education system, you had better corrected for factors like government programs to "hide" it.

> That's wrong. The dual education model addresses people who want a more practical education. Making a choice does not mean 'weeding out'. The education model allows people later to move on to more advanced education tracks and many do.

The facts are that (in many states) it is decided which child gets to do an "Abitur" (requirement for university attendance) when the children are as young as 10. From that point on, it becomes more and more difficult (albeit not impossible). This isn't particular to "Duale Ausbildung", in fact nowadays if you want an "Ausbildung" in one of the better jobs, you had better done an "Abitur" as well.

[germanier]

The author of the article clearly tried to translate the term "Duale (Berufs-)Ausbildung" which exclusively refers to the apprenticeship system. There are other types of job training but they use different terms. The article in no place claims that there are no other systems but highlights one of them. There is no doubt that this is (generally speaking) the most important alternative to a university education. All the other things are usually only mentioned as footnotes, including official reports.

[lispm]

The Ausbildung is often just an entry point to further education. For example there is something like integrated Ausbildung and university study. After a shortened Ausbildung an University education follows. Don't have actual numbers, But some 70000+ should be in this education track.

It's kind of misleading to think that the Ausbildung is just there on its own and a dead end.. With an Ausbildung one then makes a Meister, Fachwirt or Techniker. Which then may allow them to go to a University.

[germanier]

Ok, and where does the article claim that it is a dead end (or even just suggests that)? It gives a brief overview of the most important features and nothing more. It seems like you are debating against yourself here.

(Just out of personal interest: What is this "first shortened Ausbildung then university education" with 70k+ people in it called?)