[jojoo]

> We're not talking about great jobs either, it's most jobs that don't require university education. A lot of that is stuff you could be trained for on-the-job in six months or less.

Have you actually learned a real craft, in germany, or looked at it's curriculum? Because they learn a lot more than could be thought in 6 weeks. You could argue that they won't need it for the things their employer needs them to do when they work, but they learn it anyway. If they switch jobs later they won't need that much training.

Example: If you learn as an Electrician for Energy and Houses at a big construction company, the only thing you might do is chopping cable canals and maybe wiring wall sockets. Both could be learned in 6 Weeks, no question.

But at the Berufsschule you still learn all the other stuff, for an example how to wire electrical Garage doors. If you later decide to switch Jobs, you'll be prepared.

> Also, don't buy into the German educational model, it's one of the most discriminatory systems in the world, even though it is "free" on paper, it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university.

Being a teacher at the very bottom of the german school system, the school formerly known as Sonderschule I 100% agree.

[Zahlmeister]

> Have you actually learned a real craft, in germany, or looked at it's curriculum? Because they learn a lot more than could be thought in 6 weeks. You could argue that they won't need it for the things their employer needs them to do when they work, but they learn it anyway. If they switch jobs later they won't need that much training.

Yes, they learn a lot of stuff they won't need for the actual job they will perform. If they switch jobs, they probably won't need it either, unless it's a very related job. For instance, if they become a painter, they learn all kinds of painting techniques that they will never apply. That's all fine and dandy, except if they just want to work painting houses, why they have to spend three years as an apprentice?

> But at the Berufsschule you still learn all the other stuff, for an example how to wire electrical Garage doors. If you later decide to switch Jobs, you'll be prepared.

If you already knew the one thing, chances are you could've quickly learned the other thing as well. Otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren%27t_gonna_need_it

[jojoo]

> why they have to spend three years as an apprentice?

Have you actually looked at a curricula? A lot of it is repetition from school stuff. Sure the Electricians in my example learned in 7th class how to transform Volt to mV or kV. But they often can't reproduce this when they start their apprenticeship (imo the schools are to blame here).

If apprentices don't have problems with that Kind of Math, can write readable reports they generally get a Lehrzeitverkürzung up to 1.5 Years.

Source: I actually read curricula of Apprenticeships, talk with colleagues who work in the Berufsschule if my pupils might have a shot at a apprenticeship (they never do)

Besides that we have longer apprenticeships 1) so that the "german workforce" is more skilled in general. 2) so that if they choose to become Meister to be their own boss they don't need to learn all the extra stuff.

> If you already knew the one thing, chances are you could've quickly learned the other thing as well.

That does certainly apply to abstract things but it doesn't apply well to craftsmanship. To quote RMS: A if-construct does not generate friction against the for loop. But if you bend the cables in the wrong radius, 20 years later when the plastic of the wire-insulation starts degenerating, you might run into problems.

> YAGNI comparing humans to programs? i like to live in a world with skilled human beings that can realize at least some of their potential. an extended apprenticeship might help some to do that.

[Zahlmeister4]

Getting that extra education may make more sense for trades like electricians, it makes zero sense for salespeople or cooks or house painters or hair stylists and yet all these people are forced into three years of underpaid labor and crappy government schooling.

Even if the German system was better (which it isn't), it makes you wonder how all the other countries in the world are going by without it. German workers are relatively underpaid even after going through the rites, that's what makes us competitive - not the fact that our workers have more skills than they need.

> so that if they choose to become Meister to be their own boss they don't need to learn all the extra stuff

That makes no sense. Most never become a "Meister", but even those that do could learn that stuff when and if they need it.