[Zahlmeister]

I probably know more than you, or at least I have better reading comprehension:

"By contrast, countries like Germany pursue a “dual educational” model that blends classroom education with on-the-job training through apprenticeships, equipping young people not bound for university with practical labor-market skills. From the beginning of the journey from school to work, dual-system participants establish close relationships with employers. Companies sign contracts with young people (typically around age 15 or 16) and provide them an hourly wage just below that of an entry-level worker. On-the-job training typically comprises two-thirds of the curriculum in the dual system."

This is clearly referring to "Duale Ausbildung", not "Duales Studium". The vast majority of people that study at university ("Studium") never do "Duales Studium", that's more of a novelty.

[lispm]

Dual education in Germany is not only about apprenticeships. Your knowledge seems to be even more limited than the author's.

There are several dual education tracks, some advanced ones exist since the 70s. Clearly not a novelty. It's also not about the 'majority' of people, since the German education system is diverse and does provide various alternatives to the usual/classical University education.

There are even many dual education offerings which integrate Ausbildung and Studium.

I personally hired people who were from dual track education in software development a decade ago.

[Zahlmeister]

You're moving the goalpost.

The article is referring to "Duale Ausbildung", which works as I described and has nothing to do with university education.

"Duales Studium" in the modern sense is a novelty, clocking in at less than 4% in 2014 (but growing). http://www.zeit.de/2014/20/duales-studium

The article does talk about the majority, that's the whole point. "Duale Ausbildung" and regular "Hochschule/Fachhochschule" are the core of the German system. Whatever else there is isn't really relevant to the debate.

[lispm]

Check your top comment.

Duales Studium is hardly a novelty. As I said it's actually from the 70s.

What is relevant to the debate? Relevant is that the Dual Education model im Germany is diverse and offers different tracks for advanced degrees. The Ausbildung is not the end of education, but for many it is the entry into further adavnced education offerings.

Let's look at your original claims:

* the dual education is bullshit

Says it all.

* Duale Ausbildung" has nothing to do with universities

In reality the Ausblidung enables further education offerings.

* Worse, if you don't buy into the "dual education" thing, you can't get most of these jobs.

Ensures that people actually know something about their jobs, beyond training on the job.

* Don't trust German unemployment statistics

A rather useless recommendation.

* it's all about weeding out people at a young age so they're not allowed to attend the "free" university.

That's wrong. The dual education model addresses people who want a more practical education. Making a choice does not mean 'weeding out'. The education model allows people later to move on to more advanced education tracks and many do.

So your arguments were mostly unfounded and failed to see the dual education system in the broader context.

[Zahlmeister4]

> Duales Studium is hardly a novelty. As I said it's actually from the 60s.

The modern concept "Duales Studium" is both a novelty and a fringe. If you want to keep arguing semantics, I don't care.

> In reality the Ausblidung enables further education offerings.

Did I claim otherwise? To put in other words: Unless you have an "Ausbildung" or an "(Fach)Abitur" you are barred from further education.

> Ensures that people actually know something about their jobs, beyond training on the job.

It enforces that people know things they don't need to know. It prevents people willing to work but unwilling to spend three years as an underpaid apprentice from taking part in the market. A 25% drop-out rate for "Berufsausbildung" speaks for itself.

Out of cursiosity: Did you ever actually do a "Berufsausbildung"? University graduates are entering the market as full employees with zero actual work experience. What gives?

> A rather useless recommendation.

No, it's crucial. If you correlate low youth unemployment with the education system, you had better corrected for factors like government programs to "hide" it.

> That's wrong. The dual education model addresses people who want a more practical education. Making a choice does not mean 'weeding out'. The education model allows people later to move on to more advanced education tracks and many do.

The facts are that (in many states) it is decided which child gets to do an "Abitur" (requirement for university attendance) when the children are as young as 10. From that point on, it becomes more and more difficult (albeit not impossible). This isn't particular to "Duale Ausbildung", in fact nowadays if you want an "Ausbildung" in one of the better jobs, you had better done an "Abitur" as well.

[germanier]

The author of the article clearly tried to translate the term "Duale (Berufs-)Ausbildung" which exclusively refers to the apprenticeship system. There are other types of job training but they use different terms. The article in no place claims that there are no other systems but highlights one of them. There is no doubt that this is (generally speaking) the most important alternative to a university education. All the other things are usually only mentioned as footnotes, including official reports.

[lispm]

The Ausbildung is often just an entry point to further education. For example there is something like integrated Ausbildung and university study. After a shortened Ausbildung an University education follows. Don't have actual numbers, But some 70000+ should be in this education track.

It's kind of misleading to think that the Ausbildung is just there on its own and a dead end.. With an Ausbildung one then makes a Meister, Fachwirt or Techniker. Which then may allow them to go to a University.

[germanier]

Ok, and where does the article claim that it is a dead end (or even just suggests that)? It gives a brief overview of the most important features and nothing more. It seems like you are debating against yourself here.

(Just out of personal interest: What is this "first shortened Ausbildung then university education" with 70k+ people in it called?)

[lispm]

The point is to understand the context of the Ausbildung. The son of a friend just finished his Ausbildung and now he makes his Meister. This is quite common. The Meister then enables him to go to University without Abitur.

The integrated dual Ausbildung/Studium:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausbildungsintegrierter_dualer...

The number 40000 mentioned there is from 2007. Since then offerings have been expanded and made more attractive.

Example:

http://mein-duales-studium.de/fuer-schueler/information/was-...

> An der Westfälischen Hochschule kombinieren dual Studierende ein Studium mit einer Berufsausbildung oder beruflicher Praxis in einem Unternehmen oder einer öffentlichen Organisation.