[losteric]

> I don't see how Netflix paying Comcast to zero-rate Netflix traffic is fundamentally different from Amazon contracting with mail carriers to subsidize the cost of shipping for Amazon purchases, or even -- to use an example another commenter made -- an appliance manufacturer contracting with electrical utilities to subsidize the cost of electricity used by their appliances.

Strawman argument because zero-rating != net neutrality.

Amazon does NOT pay for prioritization, they get volume discounts... meaning they pay less to get their package "into the pipe" but the pipeline treats all packages equally. That is what net neutrality looks like - all content is treated equally in the pipe. The relevant example would be if Newegg packages were put on the broken slow trucks, or shoved in a pile until all the Amazo npackages have been delivered. This is obviously unacceptable and does not happen.

I'd love to hear more about your appliance manufacturer example because that sounds very unusual. However, again, that's fair because there's no issue of prioritization. Every appliance gets equal access, and brownouts impact all appliances equally. Electric non-neutrality would be: Chromebooks don't charge during a power outage, but Apple laptops do because they paid the electricity company extra. Also obviously unacceptable.

> I don't think there's anything wrong with an ISP prioritizing certain kinds of traffic over others, so long as it does not have an anti-competitive effect. > I've heard people argue that zero-rating makes it harder for smaller content providers to compete, since they won't have the resources to subsidize their customers' traffic. As I said in another comment, that's just the nature of business.

A practice that makes it harder for smaller content providers is also known as an anti-competitive practice.

> As I said in another comment, that's just the nature of business. Being big affords you certain advantages, like economies of scale. This makes it easier to compete on price. Smaller companies have to compete in other ways.

True free markets don't have an entry fee, consumers are the only ones to decide who is competitive. For all it's imperfections, the internet is the freest market we have - any idea or product can enter the market, and every consumer has equal unrestricted access to the domain it's located at.

> In my view, the real problem with the telecom industry in the United States is a lack of competition [0], a problem caused at least in part by municipal [1] and state [2] governments. With more competition, net neutrality would be a non-issue.

This is definitely a contributing factor, net neutrality would be a suicidal proposal if we had competitive ISPs. That says something about the idea.

It's a nice hypothetical, but we must regulate based on reality, with the intent of creating freer markets.

And the reality is these FCC rollbacks are ment to further undermine competition. The big ISPs don't want to keep investing in network growth and competing on service, they want to auction access to a fixed-capacity network. Remember the good ol' days of Ma Bell and those lovely long-distance fees? I thought we killed the beast but Frankenstein's monster is back.

[webXL]

> they get volume discounts... meaning they pay less to get their package "into the pipe" but the pipeline treats all packages equally.

If Amazon paid the same price as everyone else to get their packages into the pipeline, they would send fewer of them, and more delivery resources would be available for everyone else, would there not? It's not just the speed of the trucks, but their size and who's available to load, unload and deliver.

[croon]

> If Amazon paid the same price as everyone else to get their packages into the pipeline, they would send fewer of them, and more delivery resources would be available for everyone else, would there not? It's not just the speed of the trucks, but their size and who's available to load, unload and deliver.

They only send packages that people order. I'm not sure I see your point.

Roads can get congested with 100% Ford cars, but the road isn't discriminating against any other brand of car.

[webXL]

Amazon would either have to eat that cost or pass it on to their customers. There's only so much money, therefore fewer packages would be ordered from Amazon or they would be less profitable/competitive.

If the roads were congested with Fords because Fords got on the roads for 1/3 the price, then the outcome would be the same as if there was discrimination. Assuming the physical traits of the package are compatible, the pipe doesn't/can't discriminate. The operators do: government requirements, tolls, fares, delivery charges, etc.

[croon]

> If the roads were congested with Fords because Fords got on the roads for 1/3 the price, then the outcome would be the same as if there was discrimination.

Of course. But there is no such brand.

Toll roads are actually a fairly good analogy for (non)net neutrality, since roads are also local monopolies.

If toll income goes back into building more roads, it's a win for consumers and businesses using the roads, but if it's for-profit or is diverted elsewhere (other state departments), then you don't want to develop more roads, because you'll force more people (and businesses) into using toll roads.

This is what local ISP monopolies want, and no consumer or other business wins. At best; Amazon in your analogy keeps status quo by paying a protection fee.

I'm fine with you arguing that net neutrality MIGHT be unnecessary if there were no ISP monopolies, but that isn't the reality, nor would it be easy to both keep enough ISPs on the market to weed out misuse, or as a consumer switch between these.

In the reality we live in now, net neutrality is VASTLY superior the alternative.

[webXL]

A for-profit toll road is only bad because it's a natural monopoly. Competitors can't (cost-effectively) stack (or tunnel) their roads.

Good thing that the subject of debate here is something very tiny and very light. Older wired technology requires right-of-way and permits. That scheme is effectively a natural monopoly, assuming there's only one provider. That doesn't necessarily mean the next time the ISP digs up their lines to replace them that competitors shouldn't be able to bury their wires at the same time as long as the cost was shared, even though the monopoly will fight like hell to prevent it, but local laws like that should be written in order to promote competition.

Newer wireless technology is much less cost/regulation prohibitive, and not much slower. This forces the incumbents to compete and provide a valuable service.

If local ISPs use their government-sanctioned monopoly to exhort consumers or the business who cater to them, let's crack down on that. That's a specific abuse that harms specific customers.

In the case where a local ISP wants to finance an expansion or upgrade of the network with prioritized service for select customers, while not degrading what existing customers are paying for, I don't see the harm in that, especially in competitive markets, in which case the only reason for the upgrade is because the market, not a group of bureaucrats, demands it.

[croon]

> Good thing that the subject of debate here is something very tiny and very light. Older wired technology requires right-of-way and permits. That scheme is effectively a natural monopoly, assuming there's only one provider. That doesn't necessarily mean the next time the ISP digs up their lines to replace them that competitors shouldn't be able to bury their wires at the same time as long as the cost was shared, even though the monopoly will fight like hell to prevent it, but local laws like that should be written in order to promote competition.

Yes, local laws like that should be written differently, but they're not, because they're lobbied (by the local ISP) not to.

> Newer wireless technology is much less cost/regulation prohibitive, and not much slower. This forces the incumbents to compete and provide a valuable service.

One might hope, but I'm not holding my breath for wireless ever competing with wired internet, on speed in relation to (no) caps.

> If local ISPs use their government-sanctioned monopoly to exhort consumers or the business who cater to them, let's crack down on that. That's a specific abuse that harms specific customers.

Yes, we should, but again, this isn't the case.

> In the case where a local ISP wants to finance an expansion or upgrade of the network with prioritized service for select customers, while not degrading what existing customers are paying for, I don't see the harm in that, especially in competitive markets, in which case the only reason for the upgrade is because the market, not a group of bureaucrats, demands it.

Again, it's a well sounding hypothetical, the only problem being it's never happened, nor do I expect it to ever do, because it will either degrade existing customers through stagnation (not following bandwidth inflation) or purposefully to push as many as possible to more expensive service.

In a non-proven utopia, net neutrality is unnecessary, which I agreed with earlier, but again, we're not there, and we disagree about us ever getting there.

[losteric]

> If Amazon paid the same price as everyone else to get their packages into the pipeline, they would send fewer of them, and more delivery resources would be available for everyone else, would there not?

No. High volume allows the shipper to operate at a higher scale, with lower costs, and they pass along some of the savings in the form of a volume discount to Amazon.

I think you're missing the part about scale. Amazon is not taking away resources, their volume creates capacity and lowers prices.

Let's say UPS has 1 truck profitably serving a neighborhood route before Amazon comes along, delivering K packages per day operating at $N/day. The current businesses customers pay $M per package, that's the average delivery cost factoring for fluctuating actual delivery costs (operating costs are mostly fixed, a day with fewer deliveries is less profitable than many deliveries).

Now Amazon enters the scene and doubles the package volume. What happens? Assuming the first truck was well utilized, UPS will buy a second truck and split the route in half. Operating costs per house goes down because the routes are shorter, the distribution hub services more trucks, and maintenance operates at a higher scale.

Every previous business customer will pay $M or less - pick up costs are the same, but delivery from the UPS hub to the customer is lower due to volume. Amazon will pay even less because they get a volume discount from UPS; that discount reflects lower pickup costs for UPS, receiving a full truck load of packages from one Amazon distribution center costs less than picking up packages from multiple small businesses. Plus other factors like Amazon's ability to pre-sort within their warehouse on behalf of UPS.

At no point are small businesses competing with Amazon for delivery. The delivery company needs to grow, so they do grow, and as a result everyone from consumers to small businesses to massive corporations benefits.

The issue is that teleconglomerations do not want to grow. They have accrued tremendous organizational and technical debt which requires significant investment to overcome - generating large profits long-term, but only after a couple years of poor profits / shareholder dividends.

That's why we're seeing this "net neutrality issue". To be blunt, it's a fucking idiotic excuse for badly managed uncompetitive companies to sit on their laurels of regional monopolization. They're so short sighted that they can't fix their internal problems, and their size enables them to squash disruption, so their strategy is to use lobbying in order to slow down the growth of the internet (and our nation) to match their inefficiencies by charging both ends of the connection.

To tie it back to your example - this is like UPS not buying a new truck because they only have one parking space, then forcing Amazon and small businesses to bid for limited delivery capacity and charging customers based on where their package shipped from... all because their management takes 8 years to fund, design, approve, and construct a new parking space.

There is no excuse for this behavior. It's utterly absurd from any political/economic stance.

[webXL]

There's also no excuse for this red-herring. "At the 10Mbps/1Mbps threshold—which captures slower DSL technology in addition to cable and fiber—about 90 percent of census blocks have at least two providers."[1]

UPS only buys the new truck because they have to in order to stay in business, just like competitive ISPs adding value to their service. Amazon would have to pay for prioritization if UPS suddenly became the only game in town, if it wanted to maintain the same delivery speed and prioritization were available. I was just challenging your assertion about the original UPS-Amazon comparison and that it's only "fundamentally different" in the absence of competition, which is a problem, but not one affecting all Americans.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/08/us-br...