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by mywittyname 3386 days ago
I don't understand American's new-found fascination with vocational training. Why is it they expect education to now provide people with narrowly focused job training over the more traditional broad education?

Yes, college is expensive and I absolutely think something should be done to resolve that. And certainly not everyone needs a BS to be productive citizens. But societies "reverence" for the Bachelors degree was earned. Historically, these programs equip people with the background and education necessary to advance their careers.

Like many people here, I have a BSCS, and if computing became obsolete tomorrow, I feel entirely confident in my ability to transition into many other technical careers. My feeling is that a BS should be designed to open up entire classes of career options for people. But I also feel that people who opt for technical training in lieu of general education shouldn't be upset when they find out they can't transition as easily into other fields that require skills they may have never learned.

I honestly think this article serves as a cautionary tail to reinforce Bachelors "reverence" more than it does to dispel it. A person who spent years learning the depths of Italian cooking shouldn't be surprised when people don't want him managing their businesses. Knowing how to field for truffles and prepare them in a traditional way is nice, but it's not analogous to knowing how to run the logistics of a business.

3 comments

I don't understand American's new-found fascination with vocational training. Why is it they expect education to now provide people with narrowly focused job training over the more traditional broad education?

Take everything you know about how nonsense the tech hiring/interviewing process is, and just for a second play with the idea the problem is deeper than anyone thought.

What if barely any employers have the faintest idea what they need from the workforce? No real understanding of how to screen for it at all? Limited ability to assess what portions of those needs are most effectively created through self-organization among the workforce at no line-item cost to the employers (school, etc...)?

If we, for a moment, assume that was true, we'd probably expect to find a world that has cargo-culted a definition of what a qualified applicant looks like. A person who is smart in general, and knowledgeable in a domain with a surface-level resemblance to what they would be expected to do at work. Enter the bachelor's degree.

Like any other metric standing in for something the user doesn't know how to (or can't) measure directly, the metric started getting gamed. Once "BS degree" = "employable" was well-known, and a generation run through that system from birth through college, then you have respectable news outlets writing thinkpeices about the value of a BS.

And if the person doing the hiring doesn't really know what they want, the population of people that just want to find a way for everyone to pay their bills doubly don't. So the next step of the dance is absorbing the on-the-job training that employers don't want to pay for, and rarely figure out how to do properly anyway.

What happens after flushing a generation of kids through the new process without really figuring out what we're trying to accomplish in the first place will be _______________________.

Vocational training is a wash if industries change to meet market demands, which they always are. Your IBM mainframe certificate doesn't mean shit in 2017, neither does the 6 week course you took on Microsoft Access if the job doesn't call for it.

Same thing applies to bootcamps. In 2-4 years, the frameworks and concepts you've learned to implement web apps will have changed. In ten, it will be an entirely different game.

> Your IBM mainframe certificate doesn't mean shit in 2017

Ah see you say that, but I know a guy who got pulled out of retirement for about $1500 per day by a bank who needed their archaic mainframe fixed.

This is the biggest issue that rural America is facing right now. There's an incredibly large voting bloc of people that had vocational training in mining, manufacturing, etc, etc. Their training is now worthless and nobody has a great plan to get them either a real education or more useful vocational training.
Real education? Like English literature, or Art History, or Communications, or Dance, or Latin?

By real education do you mean STEM, medical or Law? Or something else?

I think the problem isn't that a Bachelor's degree is good, but that it is becoming a basic job requirement for any decent job right now, which is rough. Not everyone is capable or has the desire to be a high-level manager or executive. Many just want to do their job and collect that paycheck. Why should a degree be required for a job like that?
Companies are completely entitled to ask for proof that a person can perform the job requirements and they feel like having an education is important to performing at the level they need.

I wouldn't walk onto a construction site and expect the foreman to give me a job as a carpenter without some proof that I can do the job.

>I wouldn't walk onto a construction site and expect the foreman to give me a job as a carpenter without some proof that I can do the job.

The big problem is, historically the very thing has happened and that's how a lot of baby boomers got their first job. The day after high school graduation, my grandpa walked into a factory and asked for a job, he was given one right there on the spot. The foreman handed him a broom and he started sweeping that very day.

The way the world works has changed far faster than at any point in human history, and our society is still struggling to keep up with that. But yeah, 50 years ago you could walk onto a construction site, ask for a job, and you'd be given one. No experience required.

> The big problem is, historically the very thing has happened and that's how a lot of baby boomers got their first job.

To subvert your comment; High school jobs used to be a thing. Whether running a successful lawn mowing business or working at the nearest construction site when you turned 16.

I say this and I'm 30. However, I noticed when I was 16 that I was the only one on the block mowing lawns; none of my neighbors started mowing lawns when they were 12. [ or that I'm one of the few that has worked on a construction site, even some.]

Yep. When I was in high school, I picked asparagus on a nearby farm. My sister bagged groceries at our local grocery store. I'm sure I could still get a job picking asparagus (at least around here, most farms use legal migrant workers who are paid at least minimum wage, so they're just as happy to hire Americans for the same job). The grocery store doesn't have baggers anymore, they went to the cashiers bagging, and then to self-checkout and self-bagging years ago.

I don't know if the interest in summer jobs went away or if the abundance of summer jobs went away (chicken or egg), but it's not nearly as common at all. Doesn't help when underemployed college graduates are working at Burger King instead of high schoolers.

> The foreman handed him a broom and he started sweeping that very day.

Exactly. Most office jobs don't have an analog to "broom sweeping." Which is why they have educational requirements. One wouldn't expect to go from janitor to accountant without getting an education.

> Most office jobs don't have an analog to "broom sweeping."

There used to be entry-level, no-skill "mail room" type jobs for people with little or no education. I'd imagine many Baby Boomers got their start that way (the same Baby Boomers who are amazed that their Starbucks barista has a PhD).

Right. And a lot of those jobs have either mostly gone away because of computers. Look at an officeplace from the 1970s and there are a heck of a lot more true entry-level jobs.

And offices actually do still have "broom sweeping" but it's outsourced to a janitorial services company.

For IT, I would say that is fulfilled by helpdesk/IT support. At least for organizations that haven't outsourced their helpdesk operations yet.
Historically, you could do that in the US. They are called 'apprenticeships,' and they were pretty common before globalization made the demand for labor drop to nothing.
This would not be a job as a carpenter, it would be a job as a carpenter's apprentice. Many white collar office jobs require some requisite education before you can even get an entry-level or apprentice-like job.
>I wouldn't walk onto a construction site and expect the foreman to give me a job as a carpenter without some proof that I can do the job.

Of course companies can have education requirements. I think the point that many of these companies miss is that a college degree isn't proof of competency, and "having an education" is not the same as being educated. Specifically in the field of computer science, there are plenty of people that already have the skills needed to excel as a software engineer, but they do not have the resources to get a college degree.

Why?

Low-level jobs shouldn't have huge, if any, barriers to entry. If a manager/foreman/etc can't teach high-school graduates how to do a basic job well, it reflects much more negatively on the manager/foreman than the high-school graduates.