[pliptvo]

Problem: There's a massive gender imbalance in CS and amongst the coding community. There are loads of men and hardly any women. Most of half the population would never consider working for us or our partners. Solution: Make a website which specifically encourages young girls to see themselves as coders.

Problem: We have invested loads of money into our Irish, Indian, Australian/NZ offices, but we could increase our pool of workers from those countries. Solution: Make a website which specifically encourages kids from those countries to start their journey into CS and tech.

What is the problem?

[reitanqild]

No problem for you. And I have learned to live with it but as a young boy it was extremely frustrating to see girls getting advantages throughout the whole school system just for being girls.

Now I am fully aware that I have certain advantages ("privileges") as well but as I said: when you are young this can be extremely frustrating.

[notheguyouthink]

I mean, it's frustrating at any age. It's not a popular opinion, but just because you know "some" things are easier for you than say, "girls", doesn't make it any less frustrating.

Sure, they're frustrated too i'm sure - i'm not denying that or putting anyone down, to be clear. It has always just seemed like the wrong approach to a problem, or possibly projection of a problem where a problem doesn't exist.

[mcguire]

It's frustrating because you don't have all of the advantages, or just the advantage that you really want?

[reitanqild]

It is frustrating because as a kid/young adult you don't see the full picture : you only see you are being discriminated against.

It is frustrating because for many young men the disadvantages often seems to outweigh the advantages.

It is frustrating because as a kid/young adult some of the the countermeasures are so broad that they are hard to understand as anything but pushing one gender ahead at all cost: try to make sense of the fact that for years there was extra study points for women in higher education, including studies where female students were overrepresented like chemistry and nurse studies. (Yes, now it has been adjusted somewhat from what I see.)

Edit: and it is frustrating because it seems unfair. It seems almost like we have a built in "fairness" scale which is miscalibrated so by default it only detects unfairness against me: like when a kid go and have a really great time and come home and are angry their siblings got a candy while they were away :-/

[mcguire]

This is true; the advantages I have are not as well advertised. For example, no professor ever told me anything like, "Women don't study mathematics," as my girlfriend had.

[pliptvo]

I can't speak for your particular experience at school, but in general I think it's a shame that people whose lives are, as you say, "privileged" by the systems in which we live feel like they are at a disadvantage because of concerted attempts to raise others to their level.

[reitanqild]

You know, I was a lot younger then.

Furthermore I was answering a direct question: "What is the problem?"

Also I put the "privileged" word in quotes for a reason: while being male gives me a number of advantages it also gives me a number of disadvantages.

Furthermore there is all the rest: coming from a low socioeconomic background should account for a lot as well (buying a pc was a huge deal - I think I was 15 when my dad finally managed to get hold of one, going abroad for holiday was never an option, working unpaid at my dads business was pretty much expected and I started working as a farm hand with other farms when I was 15. )

As I said I don't care much but I think I can explain why for a lot of young men the idea of male "privilege" feels like a reality they don't experience as for them any male privilege seems to be overshadowed by a number of other factors.

[FT_intern]

I can see that. It must be very juxtaposing to see upper middle class blacks/hispanics/females (the typical "oppressed minority" working at big tech companies) getting special benefits.

[reitanqild]

Typically I don't care.

All I want from people I work with is that they are good so we can move projects forward and that they don't bully or otherwise negatively affect lives of people around them.

[a_j_c]

+1

Class > Identity politics

[paulddraper]

> What is the problem?

Discrimination.

It has been justified for centuries with all manner of reasoned arguments. Hopefully we will eventually learn discrimination is a Bad Idea.

[wolfgke]

> Hopefully we will eventually learn discrimination is a Bad Idea.

... including discrimination against boys/men - which quota regulation and "women only" programs are (imagine the outcry if one would replace "women only" by "white people only").

[shuntress]

You seem to be worried about over-correction where there is clearly none.

If we had a CS field dominated almost entirely by women then the "women only" programs would be undesirable.

This is a man in a boat protesting that a drowning woman is being helped out of the water but he is receiving no such equivalent assistance.

[wolfgke]

> You seem to be worried about over-correction where there is clearly none.

I live in Germany - and there the situation is IMHO different.

[lorenzhs]

What are you on about? I'm a PhD student at one of the top German universities for CompSci. There are around 10% women in our bachelor's and master's programmes. The department is actively trying to get more women interested in studying computer science, because it very much is a boys' club.

The problem isn't about access to courses. It's that existing programmes don't appeal to women, and it's dumb to ignore half of the population when you need more qualified people. That's why we need to make getting into computer science more attractive to women. Acknowledging that the current system just doesn't work for them is a necessary first step towards making it work for everyone.

[wolfgke]

> What are you on about?

The laws for women quota: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13551798

Otherwise:

Nobody forces women to study a non-STEM subject - they decide it themselves. So doing promotional programs for women has the implicit implication "women are too stupid to get on their own what they should study (while men are smart enough to find this out on their own)" - something I would never ever claim.

[mcguire]

The majority of high skilled tech jobs aren't held by men? There are no selective barriers to entry?

[wolfgke]

People are free to study what they want. If there are more men who want to study a STEM subject, this will of course lead to a majority of men. Indeed, typical STEM subjects have no limitation on your A-level mark (Numerus Clausus) for being allowed to study it. So there is clearly no selective barrier to entry (Numerus Clausus) [but I'm not a native speaker of English - so it can be that "selective barriers to entry" has a subcontext in English that I'm not aware of].

[camus2]

> Discrimination.

So it's a problem in CS but not in education or healthcare, where women are the majority?

[pliptvo]

In what part of healthcare are men systemically impeded from involvement?

[RUG3Y]

I don't think it can be demonstrated that women are systematically impeded from involvement in STEM fields and CS when there are many programs actively targeting women and girls. A skilled woman in CS appears to have a huge advantage in hiring, at least in any company I've been in.

[mcguire]

Problem: women face selective barriers to entry in this field.

Solution: introduce programs promoting the field to women and girls.

Problem: women have a huge advantage due to the programs.

...?

[camus2]

> In what part of healthcare are men systemically impeded from involvement?

In what part of CS women are systematically impeded from involvement?

[pliptvo]

Great that you're interested in finding out. http://www.npr.org/tags/221437017/women-in-tech http://overit.com/blog/sexism-in-tech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism_in_the_technology_indus... http://www.businessinsider.com/why-im-finished-defending-sex... http://www.cbsnews.com/news/women-are-getting-fed-up-with-se... http://www.dailydot.com/via/subtle-sexism-tech-silicon-valle... Or just search "sexism in tech".

Whilst we're on the topic, lets also add that non-white men and women and transgendered people have it even worse.

[mcguire]

Have you a better one?

Doing nothing isn't a better idea.

[pliptvo]

Discrimination isn't just an idea, it's a material reality. Women are systematically disadvantaged on every level of tech, from the assumption that 'nerds' are boys, which seems to go back to IT marketing from the 1980s[1], to their being prevented from holding senior offices in the biggest tech corporations. They are discriminated against by a male-dominated industry and culture. Only when the systemic, material conditions of patriarchy are no longer in force will it make sense to no longer 'discriminate'.

Also, care to name one thinker from history who doesn't advocate discrimination of some sort? Seriously. Who is your model?

[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

[paulddraper]

> Only when [X happens] will it make sense to no longer discriminate.

Problem is, no one can agree when X happens (or has happened).

"Only when we're safe will it make sense to no longer spy on all our citizens."

"Only when our enemies are defeated will it make sense to no longer have Emperor Caesar."

[reader5000]

Your evidence of "material reality" is just you repeating your claim.

[Lawtonfogle]

The problem? Because those actions are discrimination. Using discrimination to fight discrimination largely targets the under privileged members of the privileged groups.

It's basically a call for equity instead of equality, except it is limited equity which automatically assume some do not need equitable help. It is also limited in how it's applied.

Find the actual problems causing any modern day biases and fix those. Personally I work with some kids to help them love math. In my (admittingly anecdotal experience) there is a bias noticeable in middle school for all kids to not like math that evolves into a gender bias but to some extent hurts both genders' ability and desire to learn. Identifying and remedying the cause of this would do more to help both girls and boys than targeted aid in high-school or college.