[Super74]

As I write this I too am having to go through a VPN to access the world. Even when it works properly, I constantly have to "play the VPN game."

I really don't have the time to list out every item from jhancock that I disagree with, but pretty much all of them made me grimace. And I find it poignant that he no longer lives here. I too live in Shanghai and have for the past 5 years. I came here looking for another view on life and to see what all the media fuss was about.

Don't get me wrong, I love the food, the excitement of living in a foreign country, have a wonderful chinese wife and in-laws and now take the good with the bad. But I now see why the US is #1 in many areas and continues to bring positivity to the world, for the most part.

I fully understand why millions of people attempt to immigrate to the US every year. Clean water, clean air, freedom to buy property, move where you like and a legal system that can be counted on. Nothing is perfect and there are exceptions, but China is a land with no law and it really never was. What the emperor wanted, he got. Contracts mean nothing, police cannot be counted on for much, other than brokering bribes between parties on the street and judges feel if you are in front of them, you did something wrong, regardless of the situation.

I have run my own business as well, legally, and have seen actions on part of my partners and customers that have blown my mind. The scams and lies now make me smile and I take them as lessons on what a person can do. It is the wild west over here.

As for the internet service, forget about it. Without SLAs, your provider is obligated to give you nothing. Either pay or they turn off your service. My home service is 150RMB/ month, my office, 2500RMB/ month because I am in an office building and they think we can afford more. My home service works above and beyond my best day in the office.

IP also means nothing, so the West continues to get raped over anything that might bring a profit from SW to design to web 2.0 opportunities. It's about block and copy and we are letting them step all over the WTO guidelines. Cisco? MS? Those sell-outs? They built the great firewall! I can tell you, they have not made more money than they have invested, but they will never admit it. Everyones' hope to finally make a buck someday in the future over here. The dream of any foreign company.....that never comes. Ask Grumman. Ask Pepsi. Ask GM with their 49/50 joint venture.

The air smells, the water putrid and cars drive on the sidewalk. Oh, and what is a red light? A color. And this is in their greatest international city. The rest of the country dives into the 18th century. I have been from top to bottom.

US creativity and ingenuity in technologies, film, music , popular trends, fashion, social improvements were all built on a legal system that has lasted over 200 years and continues to roll with the punches. China? The CCP just hit 60 and they still don't know what to call themselves. Communist? Socialist? Quasi-capitalist? A little copy of all of them. That's confusion, not progress.

Mark my words, we will be dealing with the worst kind of monster, an enabled one. I am talking about the CCP, not the Chinese people themselves. Know the difference. Blocking the internet is nothing, remember Tienanmen? They killed their own students and that says it all. Those leaders are still in power and are about to "elect" their children in 2012.

Well, I guess I did cover most of his comments. ha! And by the way, this summer, I will be finally coming home for good and will kiss the ground of a National Park when I do.

[jhancock]

Your finding that I am not in Shanghai at the moment says nothing poignant. My family came back to the U.S. for a bit for family reasons: my grandmother is 99 and I wanted to spend time with her. My mother is getting a bit old and I wanted my son to spend time with her while he's still a young boy. There are certainly things about China that I personally am thankful for a break. Air and noise pollution mostly, and having more personal space. How is air and noise pollution and personal space a product of bad or corrupt governance and not simply due to the size of China's population and economic growth? The China gov has sponsored more new nuclear reactor projects than any country in the world to try to catch up with its energy needs. Its way behind and coal burning is going to keep increasing which is a tragedy. But they are ahead of the U.S. in being proactive. How are these side effects of their unprecedented growth the fault of some "evil empire"? I've worked inside the China government. There are good people and bad people, just like the U.S. I no longer work with China government and mostly not with local Chinese business because I find the process incompatible with my personality. My wife handles the process with no stress. So I do the IT work and deal with western business partners and she deals with the local stuff. Its important to understand that its "you" that gets upset about these things, not the majority of the local Chinese. I've snapped several times in my years there. I've hit critical levels of "I can't take this anymore!!!". But when I calm down and look around, I notice that its just me...the locals aren't bothered by it or at least not enough to try to change.

You've failed to make a case that its the CCP that is causing the problems that you describe. Well, with the exception of intellectual property issues. But the people of China are quite supportive of not paying a tariff to western countries for intellectual property. Can you make a moral or human rights case for why that position is wrong?. I'm not defending the CCP or their internet policies. But I can tell you that the vast majority of problems I've had doing business in China were due to the business people behaving badly. The government doesn't sponsor this behavior.

As to China not knowing what to call themselves...why should any country call themselves by a name that describes an economic tool? Why can't a country and its people use all available tools and change the system as their needs change? Your feelings about wanting to kiss the ground of a U.S. National Park points to your support of a government owning land and protecting and providing it to all citizens. U.S. National Parks are certainly not a product of capitalism. Dare I call it by its rightful name?

I highly recommend Americans read the book "In the Pond" http://www.amazon.com/Pond-Ha-Jin/dp/0375709118 The book speaks to many aspects of Chinese culture. The part that an American may find the most difficult to accept is how the protagonist, Shao Bin, keeps pushing for change and justice and keeps getting his ass handed to him. All the while, no one supports him, he's not a hero. His wife is angry at him for bringing trouble into their home. This is very hard for an American to accept. I will most likely never feel the way a Chinese person feels as to the boundaries of "what you can change and at what cost". But I have come to accept that I don't feel it and to reject my response that my feelings on what I can and should change in China are due to my having a more clear moral standing.

[drats]

Political analysis is often hard because you can't control all of the variables. However we can look at very similar groups under different modes of governance.

Hong Kong. British-derived institutions and law. 12th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 1st on the Index of Economic Freedom. Outranking the USA in both.

Taiwan. Democracy. 37th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 27th on the Index of Economic Freedom.

China. CCP rule by many names. 79th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 140th on the Index of Economic Freedom.

Regarding your experiences of the people not caring, perhaps the locals know what happens when they disagree and have become passive (as well as knowing that there are career damaging aspects beyond outright oppression)? You know they did fight a civil war over many of these issues and the rebels went to Taiwan? Public debate gets very heated in Taiwan on many issues. There are still protests in Hong Kong on the anniversary of Tienanmen Square massacre.

There are many countries throughout Asia that use an "Asian values" cultural argument to deflect criticism from the West. I would just say that where people migrate to when given the opportunity is highly suggestive.

N.B. The IEF draws from the CPI for part of its ranking, but includes a lot more than that.

[xster]

Nice point. I made a comment about economics on the same thread, that Chinese statesmen 2500 years ago recognized that first economic improvements have to take place before moral enlightenment and the protection of individual rights. Mainland did do worse than these other equally Confucian societies, but I'd argue on where mainland did wrong and the solution. And I'm hesitant to say that these political reasons are the cause rather than the effects of bad economic performance of mainland. The mao period is undeniably a period of complete tragedy. But as much as a political tragedy, it is also an economic failure. So when it comes to the solution, I would again argue that political reforms at this stage in China will not bring benefits much less overthrowing the CCP. Gradual economic improvements is the best way to improve the political and social conditions of the Chinese masses

[jhancock]

Those ranking systems may be better than nothing. But they are not an excuse to look down on another nation. They also do not account for the effects their system has on other systems.

I am not going to entertain a HK/Taiwan vs mainland history debate with you. The past is the past.

My posts here do not claim that China doesn't have plenty of problems to solve. Would it be too terrible to lend a hand in making it better instead of hurling insults and demanding today's leaders of China to apologize for mistakes of yesterday's?

[felipe]

People can enjoy clean water and clean air in the US because all the crap we consume is outsourced to China.

[mvalle]

Good point. However, if it wasn't, I doubt it would be the same in the US for two reasons. The first reason is that it isn't just the US outsourcing to China, ie. China gets everyone's crap. But the second and maybe more important reason, is that the US and most western countries, I assume, have stricter laws that China about pollution and waste disposal.

[xster]

I agree with your focus on the legal system. It is indeed shit in China. But when it comes to the solution, I'm not sure I can propose a better path than that already followed by China. That is, a progressive economic reform, a very limited artistic liberation and essentially no political reform. By appearance to westerners, this looks horrible, but then again, look at eastern european countries that did follow a typical western/IMF approach and where they are at today. We have seen quick political reforms and financial deregulations and all the other washington consensus sell points that the west imposed on developing countries and where they lead to.

Back to China, even during the warring states periods, 2 and a half millenia ago, chinese statesmen acknowledged that only through economic ascension can citizens start giving a shit about morals and rights and having been over half of China's provinces, I believe that what the students tried to achieve on Tien'anmen will never work in China's present state. (it's idealistic democracy didn't even work among students on Tien'anmen square that changed hands through essentially mob wars about 3 times a day). The best path to better political and social states for the Chinese is exactly what China is doing right now, that is improving the economic condition for as many as possible.

No, I'm not saying that some's political rights should be sacrificed for a long term gain or that the lesser of 2 evils is good, but I just can't envisage a better way to improve China than what China is doing now. China does have a lot of problems and like it or not, it will not be solved overnight and overthrowing the CCP is definitely not going to improve the lives of ordinary citizens.

[mcantelon]

America is better off currently mostly because it is newer. As time goes on the US will become more and more like China: more corruption, more pollution, less human rights.

[DeusExMachina]

I really don't think so. America can be "new", but Europe is much more old.

We are certainly having some problems on these topics, but we are far from being corrupted, polluted and without human rights. Especially in the northern european country, that are a big example of legality, human and civil rights and environmentally directed mindset.

I think that it's not a matter of how old a country is. To cite another example I know well, Italy is far worse than Europe, despite being first world, because, as a country, is really young (150 years compared to centuries for all other european countries).

[falien]

The current US government is older than the current Chinese government. Major pollution became a problem during the industrial revolution, which started in Europe and North America. And when did the Chinese people have any more human rights (not just better conditions, but a right to those conditions) than they have now?