[drats]

Political analysis is often hard because you can't control all of the variables. However we can look at very similar groups under different modes of governance.

Hong Kong. British-derived institutions and law. 12th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 1st on the Index of Economic Freedom. Outranking the USA in both.

Taiwan. Democracy. 37th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 27th on the Index of Economic Freedom.

China. CCP rule by many names. 79th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 140th on the Index of Economic Freedom.

Regarding your experiences of the people not caring, perhaps the locals know what happens when they disagree and have become passive (as well as knowing that there are career damaging aspects beyond outright oppression)? You know they did fight a civil war over many of these issues and the rebels went to Taiwan? Public debate gets very heated in Taiwan on many issues. There are still protests in Hong Kong on the anniversary of Tienanmen Square massacre.

There are many countries throughout Asia that use an "Asian values" cultural argument to deflect criticism from the West. I would just say that where people migrate to when given the opportunity is highly suggestive.

N.B. The IEF draws from the CPI for part of its ranking, but includes a lot more than that.

[xster]

Nice point. I made a comment about economics on the same thread, that Chinese statesmen 2500 years ago recognized that first economic improvements have to take place before moral enlightenment and the protection of individual rights. Mainland did do worse than these other equally Confucian societies, but I'd argue on where mainland did wrong and the solution. And I'm hesitant to say that these political reasons are the cause rather than the effects of bad economic performance of mainland. The mao period is undeniably a period of complete tragedy. But as much as a political tragedy, it is also an economic failure. So when it comes to the solution, I would again argue that political reforms at this stage in China will not bring benefits much less overthrowing the CCP. Gradual economic improvements is the best way to improve the political and social conditions of the Chinese masses

[jhancock]

Those ranking systems may be better than nothing. But they are not an excuse to look down on another nation. They also do not account for the effects their system has on other systems.

I am not going to entertain a HK/Taiwan vs mainland history debate with you. The past is the past.

My posts here do not claim that China doesn't have plenty of problems to solve. Would it be too terrible to lend a hand in making it better instead of hurling insults and demanding today's leaders of China to apologize for mistakes of yesterday's?