[jhancock]

Your finding that I am not in Shanghai at the moment says nothing poignant. My family came back to the U.S. for a bit for family reasons: my grandmother is 99 and I wanted to spend time with her. My mother is getting a bit old and I wanted my son to spend time with her while he's still a young boy. There are certainly things about China that I personally am thankful for a break. Air and noise pollution mostly, and having more personal space. How is air and noise pollution and personal space a product of bad or corrupt governance and not simply due to the size of China's population and economic growth? The China gov has sponsored more new nuclear reactor projects than any country in the world to try to catch up with its energy needs. Its way behind and coal burning is going to keep increasing which is a tragedy. But they are ahead of the U.S. in being proactive. How are these side effects of their unprecedented growth the fault of some "evil empire"? I've worked inside the China government. There are good people and bad people, just like the U.S. I no longer work with China government and mostly not with local Chinese business because I find the process incompatible with my personality. My wife handles the process with no stress. So I do the IT work and deal with western business partners and she deals with the local stuff. Its important to understand that its "you" that gets upset about these things, not the majority of the local Chinese. I've snapped several times in my years there. I've hit critical levels of "I can't take this anymore!!!". But when I calm down and look around, I notice that its just me...the locals aren't bothered by it or at least not enough to try to change.

You've failed to make a case that its the CCP that is causing the problems that you describe. Well, with the exception of intellectual property issues. But the people of China are quite supportive of not paying a tariff to western countries for intellectual property. Can you make a moral or human rights case for why that position is wrong?. I'm not defending the CCP or their internet policies. But I can tell you that the vast majority of problems I've had doing business in China were due to the business people behaving badly. The government doesn't sponsor this behavior.

As to China not knowing what to call themselves...why should any country call themselves by a name that describes an economic tool? Why can't a country and its people use all available tools and change the system as their needs change? Your feelings about wanting to kiss the ground of a U.S. National Park points to your support of a government owning land and protecting and providing it to all citizens. U.S. National Parks are certainly not a product of capitalism. Dare I call it by its rightful name?

I highly recommend Americans read the book "In the Pond" http://www.amazon.com/Pond-Ha-Jin/dp/0375709118 The book speaks to many aspects of Chinese culture. The part that an American may find the most difficult to accept is how the protagonist, Shao Bin, keeps pushing for change and justice and keeps getting his ass handed to him. All the while, no one supports him, he's not a hero. His wife is angry at him for bringing trouble into their home. This is very hard for an American to accept. I will most likely never feel the way a Chinese person feels as to the boundaries of "what you can change and at what cost". But I have come to accept that I don't feel it and to reject my response that my feelings on what I can and should change in China are due to my having a more clear moral standing.

[drats]

Political analysis is often hard because you can't control all of the variables. However we can look at very similar groups under different modes of governance.

Hong Kong. British-derived institutions and law. 12th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 1st on the Index of Economic Freedom. Outranking the USA in both.

Taiwan. Democracy. 37th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 27th on the Index of Economic Freedom.

China. CCP rule by many names. 79th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 140th on the Index of Economic Freedom.

Regarding your experiences of the people not caring, perhaps the locals know what happens when they disagree and have become passive (as well as knowing that there are career damaging aspects beyond outright oppression)? You know they did fight a civil war over many of these issues and the rebels went to Taiwan? Public debate gets very heated in Taiwan on many issues. There are still protests in Hong Kong on the anniversary of Tienanmen Square massacre.

There are many countries throughout Asia that use an "Asian values" cultural argument to deflect criticism from the West. I would just say that where people migrate to when given the opportunity is highly suggestive.

N.B. The IEF draws from the CPI for part of its ranking, but includes a lot more than that.

[xster]

Nice point. I made a comment about economics on the same thread, that Chinese statesmen 2500 years ago recognized that first economic improvements have to take place before moral enlightenment and the protection of individual rights. Mainland did do worse than these other equally Confucian societies, but I'd argue on where mainland did wrong and the solution. And I'm hesitant to say that these political reasons are the cause rather than the effects of bad economic performance of mainland. The mao period is undeniably a period of complete tragedy. But as much as a political tragedy, it is also an economic failure. So when it comes to the solution, I would again argue that political reforms at this stage in China will not bring benefits much less overthrowing the CCP. Gradual economic improvements is the best way to improve the political and social conditions of the Chinese masses

[jhancock]

Those ranking systems may be better than nothing. But they are not an excuse to look down on another nation. They also do not account for the effects their system has on other systems.

I am not going to entertain a HK/Taiwan vs mainland history debate with you. The past is the past.

My posts here do not claim that China doesn't have plenty of problems to solve. Would it be too terrible to lend a hand in making it better instead of hurling insults and demanding today's leaders of China to apologize for mistakes of yesterday's?