[NTDF9]

What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation.

I witnessed an example of this in a music performance of a teen rock band.

In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going guys" etc.

While this feedback raises self-esteem with positive feedback, there is no criticism of where they failed...at all!! Who's going to tell them, "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked"?

When these same kids go for a "real" performance/audition, they suck at it, fail miserably and thus causing anti-social behaviors, anger, and in extreme cases, suicides.

I personally believe in a system of constructive criticism where positive feedback is necessary for the kids, yet someone actually tells them that they can do better in this, this and this area.

Irrationally high/low self-esteem is a bane for competition.

[skywhopper]

There's a time and a place for critique, and immediately after a performance is neither. Only a jerk with truly low self-esteem would think that it was appropriate to offer unsolicited criticicism of the performance skills of a teenager in a rock band to their face at the performance.

If it's their music instructor, maybe. But again, that's not really the place. Next lesson would be the right time and place to get that feedback.

[charlesdm]

Are you an American? I'm European, and maybe this is just personal experience / a personal anecdote, but whenever I've had conversations with an American I found that they tend to always be really excited and then casually ignore any further communication. It's much harder to figure out for me what an American _actually_ means vs say a Belgian or a British person. No point in being an open person if you're only touting positive things.

I agree with your statement in principle, but at the same time, people need to be willing to give some meaningful comments. If I'm trying to break through in a rock band, I want criticism so I can figure out how to improve. Being told "Good performance brah", if you know you sucked, sucks.

[maroonblazer]

I'm an American and my 10 yr old son is in an organized band that includes a weekly private lesson and a public performance. I agree with skywhopper that there's a time and place for criticism and right after the show, especially at that age, is not it.

Also, part of the objective of having the public performance is to simply get kids comfortable performing publicly. My kid was practically shitting himself before the show, he was so nervous about playing in front of a crowd. So, a healthy part of the applause is recognition that they simply performed publicly. It's likely that greeting them with criticism of their playing as they walk off the stage won't do much to encourage them to try it again.

[NTDF9]

>> It's likely that greeting them with criticism of their playing as they walk off the stage won't do much to encourage them to try it again.

There's a way to frame it. At the end of a band performance, the audience (even if it is just 3-4 people) is encouraged to clap, even if the performance sucked. Usually, they do clap. This is enough of a positive reinforcement.

When the whole thing is over, before packing up, have a 15 minute meeting in which all you do is say,

"Great performance guys. You did a,b,c really well. Jeff, I saw you listened to my instruction. Hi five! Stacy, you did a good job. There were some mistakes in your chord transitions, let's talk about that so you can do it better next time"

Kids should grow up knowing they are doing well but aren't perfect yet. Let's keep improving until we get there.

[gluggymug]

You don't teach kids I assume. I do. I am a judo coach of kids.

I think the point is : It is not really up to the parents to be so critical of their kids. They should be supportive and positive.

It is really up to the coach to provide the technical feedback and it is more beneficial to assess performance at the next practice when the kids are back in a learning mode.

At that point they are mentally ready to practice over their problem areas straight away.

Parents can set their kids back by berating them at the wrong time.

[rimantas]

Yeah, it's really not up to the parents to raise their kids. It's scarry how we get to this point where people write this kind of shit with a straight face.

[NTDF9]

The exact timing of the feedback session is debatable. It could be in a wrap up session, next training session or whatever.

More importantly, it should be private and only for the eyes and ears of the team/band/player.

[vacri]

Raising your kids properly means loving them, yes, but not to the point that you outsource teaching them how to be resilient.

[wernercd]

You can be supportive and positive... and honest.

Being supportive of shitty performances is dishonest and shitty.

Then again... the "parents" of today cry fits if their kid plays like crap and doesn't get some sort of participation award.

[charlesdm]

Right: 10yo - agree. But once you're past a certain age, e.g. 14-15, probably not? Then again, I don't think people should be rewarded either for showing up or putting in an effort. But for younger kids (e.g. < 14yo) it's definitely not an issue + good that you want to get them to experience new things.

Maybe I have different view on things, but if I look back at how much focus was put on putting in effort (and not actually achieving anything) during my high school years, then I think we have things wrong to some extent. It's even worse today than it was before -- I have a friend who works in a school and he says it's great that grading is being phased out.. not sure whether I agree on that.

[squeaky-clean]

If your friend was learning to code, and wrote a tetris clone, would you congratulate them on their first major project, or would you critique their sloppy code? They had to develop and live with that codebase, maybe for several days or more. They're probably aware of some things that suck about it, but had to stick with it (otherwise you never finish). Having someone criticize your code, variable names, lack of patterns without asking would be really demoralizing.

There's a difference between a well written function, and an entire application that's well organized and thought out. And there's a difference between playing in your garage and playing on stage.

Did the band suck because they couldn't play? Or did they suck because they were nervous? Well the only way to get over that is to play in front of people more.

I also think there should be a difference in expectations depending on where/what you're seeing. You have every right to criticize a group playing Madison Square Garden. But there's a reason the 14 year olds are playing O'Mallys Pub on a Tuesday, or the Ernie Ball stage at Warped Tour, and not the main stages or an arena.

What's particularly awesome and worth congratulating is watching a band of teenagers suck on stage, and then watching them a month later suck a little less. We should be striving for "better" rather than "great", in my opinion.

[gutnor]

There is a lot of assumption in this discussion like there is nothing between blind encouragement and stark criticism.

You want you son/friend to learn to code and his first project is copy-pasta from a book. Fantastic. Actually doing something is by far the number 1 challenge people never overcome.

Second project is also copy-pasta, that's only fantastic if you son/friend learn to be a typist. He and You both know he can do that. Does not mean you need to trash him, but showing the same enthusiasm as with the first project is counter productive, instead you should probably encourage him to tinker a bit with the program.

Challenge needs to grow. Sure you don't want to discourage a beginner showing how far he is from the mountain summit, but after climbing a step you need to show him the next one.

[sheepmullet]

In reality it depends so much on the context. People are primed for learning right after finishing a task.

Is my friend just giving coding a go or are they trying to get a dev job?

Is my friend trying to show me what they have built or asking for help improving the quality of their code?

Etc etc.

Likewise is this a 14 year old athlete trying to compete at the state level? Or a 14 year old trying out football because his friends play?

[charlesdm]

There's definitely a difference between the result, and the way something was built or put together. I'd congratulate them on the result and tell them what they did right, code wise. I'd also perhaps point out some (major) areas where they could've done better, so they could take that knowledge and use it in the next app or game they decide to build.

[mgalka]

What country are you from? In my experience Americas fall somewhere in the middle in terms of directness, compared to European countries.

I lived in the UK for a few years and found Brits very hard to read / resistant to confrontation. On the other hand, I'm married to a Spaniard, and when I'm over there, it's sometimes a bit uncomfortable how direct and open people are.

[charlesdm]

Belgium. It's not necessarily the directness that I mind, it's the fact that often people are (excuse my language) full of shit. They say A, but actually mean B. Which is a trait, for example, the British have as well, but one I seem to understand a lot better than when I'm dealing with Americans.

[DavidAdams]

Americans have a reputation for saying things like "let's do lunch sometime" as a sort of vague statement of agreeableness and intention to stay in contact, whereas, let's say, Swedish people would consider that to be a straightforward intention to book a lunch date.

[nisse72]

Swedish pleasantries 101:

Sure! Let's do lunch! Week 42? No my in-laws will be visiting that week. Week 43? Sorry, I have a dentist appointment that week. Week 44, no I can't then, but maybe week 45? Oh, we have a christmas thing that week. Week 46? I'm not sure, but I think I need to keep that week open. How about we get back in touch after the holidays? Absolutely. Rinse and repeat.

[jrochkind1]

Ha, that's because Swedish people would never say that to someone they haven't known for 10 years. :)

[kasey_junk]

> Swedish people would consider that to be a straightforward intention to book a lunch date

I don't know Swedish from Martian, but I'm surprised the language doesn't have "pleasantries". They seem near universal.

I know that I (as an American) have had uncomfortable experiences with translated Chinese for instance, assuming someone was asking impertinent questions when it was really just them being polite.

[charlesdm]

That is a pretty good example of what I mean.

[oldmanjay]

I've never met a European who wasn't as full of shit as anyone else. I suppose Belgians may be magical in that regard but I suspect not.

[hindsightbias]

The Belgians I've known simply want a straight answer.

Americans will make up a hundred reasons to not do something when they don't have a technical leg to stand on. I was starting to hate this Belgian guy because he wanted something done and I didn't want to spend the time required to do it. Finally, after coming up with all sorts of excuses, I just told him the truth and thought he'd storm out.

He just said "Fine! Now we can go have a beer"

[charlesdm]

Belgians are definitely also full of shit, but in our own special way. :-) I guess it’s more of a cultural thing, where you expect something and reality is something else.

[roel_v]

I'm Belgian but I haven't lived there for many years. I'm not sure if you still live there, but I do not support your position at all. Belgians are just as ambiguous in communication as anyone else. In a different way, maybe, but they're certainly (overall) not direct.

[tajen]

Among "opportunity for improvement" and "a challenge", my preferred wording came from an American war movie: "Boss, we have a situation" was translated in French with "Boss, we have a problem". As if the original movie's character meant there was an interesting "new situation" about natural water cooling the nuclear reactor, while the French translation acknowledged that it could be a problem to have water pouring in a nuclear submarine at -3000 feet...

[trylist]

Hmm, any American would immediately understand that "situation" meant "problem" in this context. To Americans, that is direct. It's not a fluff word avoiding saying "problem", it means "problem".

[plandis]

That kinds of seems like you're looking at a different culture of people from your own perspective.

Try to look at it from the other point of view rather than writing it off because it is not your "one true way".

[alasdair_]

Where in the UK did you live?

The Scots and Irish can be brutally direct, while a Londoner will take great pains to avoid confrontation (in general).

[mgalka]

Yes, you're right. Should have said English. I lived in London.

[reflexive]

Maybe this is part of why a lot more popular bands come from the US than from Europe?

Not to be glib, but when I lived in Europe I was shocked at how many unknown American bands they would fly out to play at tiny venues (bars, "underground" clubs) every weekend. I asked, don't you have your own unknown bands that rehearse in garages and dorm rooms? It turns out: not so much, not nearly to the level that this exists in America.

So maybe the difference is that Europeans like to shit all over their friends' bands?

[Phr0ztByte]

Band popularity has a lot to do with marketing. If you are looking at the size of European countries they have just as many influential artists as the US. UK and Sweden in particular.

[reflexive]

Can you recommend any Swedish acts? I thought of Junior Senior and Röyksopp but it turns out they're Danish and Norwegian.

[Anthony-G]

There’s a Wikipedia page for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Sweden

Artists I particularly like are Robyn (pop), The Knife (electronic/“IDM”), Fever Ray (one half of The Knife), The Cardigans (pop), Lykke Li (indie pop), iamamiwhoami (experimental electronic) Opeth (death metal), Kleerup (electronic dance), Neneh Cherry (pop/hip-hop), José González (indie pop). Note: genres aren’t particularly useful but I thought some indication of what the artist is like is better than none.

If you like Röyksopp, I’d recommend checking out Kleerup, The Knife, iamamiwhoami, Lykke Li and Fever Ray.

Also, you may not know the name but you’ll be very familiar with the songs written and/or produced by Max Martin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin

[wott]

Americans get excited about the most commonplace things like they were 12-year old virgins. You can also see it here when some idiotic startup comes up with an idiotic business model. I can never decide if they are serious or not.

Same in sports. They all go full hysterical mode when they qualify for the next round of 8. Er... boy, you do this every week, you haven't failed reaching the final once in the last 3 years, why do you and your team mates and your family need to overplay it so much as if you accomplished anything special? Do other players/athletes from other countries need to do the same? No.

I can't see the point to spread and spread and spread on things which have just been done how they should be done. Acknowledge them and move to the stuff which went wrong or can be improved, that's more interesting.

About making a fuss about nothing, I remember that time when I visited the USA as a teenager, and when we left most of the American adults began to cry (after we managed to escape from the bloody hugs. I don't know who invented hugs, but I hate him.). We looked at each other, wondering what was going on. It seemed our departure was something big, so we tried to force ourselves to do the same but we didn't manage to shed a tear. So we kids had to witness all these grown-ups crying for nothing. That scene shocked me, I remember it after 25 years.

(Okay, one possible explanation was that they may have thought that we were sent back to slavery in a third-world commie state, since God knows all countries don't have the luck to be in northern America.)

[warlox]

> after we managed to escape from the bloody hugs. I don't know who invented hugs, but I hate him.

Yet you're from France, where people kiss each other as a greeting.

[kbart]

Well, if just after performance you told me: "wow, that was great", then the next time we met: "actually, you sucked guys" (or even worse, tell that behind my back), I would deem you liar and dishonest person. Constructive criticism, especially by close friends and family, is the best outcome imho, while an empty, meaningless praise only causes harm on the long run. I'm from Europe, so it must be a cultural difference.

[dclowd9901]

In my opinion, it takes a real lily to not be able to handle or constructively internalize others' criticisms as they're lobbed at you. These are important skills. I don't always welcome criticism, but when I get it, I listen.

[seanmcdirmid]

Fine. Don't offer criticism, but don't offer fake praise either.

[kodt]

And if this is just a garage band with no formal lessons?

[Tenhundfeld]

You touch on something I think about often as a father. Many years ago, I had a psychology professor who basically went off on a rant for an entire class meeting about this, and it struck a chord in me.

It was basically this:

1) Parents don't understand a child's emotional needs. Children need a foundation of love, which at an early age basically means attention from and interaction with caregivers.

2) Modern parents, especially pronounced starting with baby boomers, often feel they didn't get enough love and support from their parents. So they lavish their children with praise – frequently instead of focused attention – and think they're doing a good job.

3) This creates children who commingle love with achievement. That is, their parents love them because of their supposed achievements, and thus, if they're not achieving things, they aren't worthy of love. So children simultaneously have inflated egos but also very insecure egos. (This also ties into the whole idea that you should praise a child's effort, not their intelligence.)

That's all very abstract though. He gave a bunch of examples, but only one has stuck with me. Let's say your three year old comes to you with a drawing. Unless she's a prodigy, that drawing is going to be objectively bad, mostly squiggles with maybe a shape or two.

How most modern parents respond:

Parent: Good job! This is such a pretty drawing. I like how you used different colors. That's a great circle. You're a good drawer. Can you go draw me a square now?

Parent then goes back to watching TV, which would be a smartphone in an updated example.

How a parent should respond:

Parent: Thank you for showing me your drawing. I like how you used different colors and only drew on the paper. (legitimate praise is fine). What's this? (points to circle blob)

Kid: A horse.

Parent: Oh, a horse. Cool. Does she have a name? (or Is the horse happy today? Can he run fast? whatever. The point is to engage in open ended questions that show you care and let the kid drive the conversation, somewhat.)

Kid: His name is cow.

Parent: A horse named cow, how silly.

And so on.

Anyway, I'm sure people would have problems with my sample good response too, and I'm probably misremembering the details. I'm also not sure the baby boomer stuff is totally accurate. But the overall idea is to give attention and focused interaction, not undue praise, and that makes a ton of sense to me.

Edited for typos and formatting.

[fizzbatter]

It's weird, i don't think i had a ton of praise growing up (in the 90s), but regardless i ended up a basket case when it comes to praise. I loathe it.

At some early point in my life i saw how meaningless praise was. Parents (mine and others) praised without warrant.. and it was obvious to me. Worse yet, i couldn't figure out where the line was - what was legitimate praise? I became distrusting of all praise, and rarely felt pride from anyone but myself. Which, honestly sucks.

Whether it's parents praising their children, or gifts at Christmas that people often don't want but smile and act like they do.. everyone is just lying to each other so constantly that everything of value feels so fake.

It's honestly quite upsetting to me. I wonder if it's like this everywhere? Is it mostly an American situation?

[criddell]

I might agree with you, but I would need more context.

For example, my daughter did a rock-camp last summer. It was some neighborhood kids that got together with a teacher for 5 afternoons to learn six songs and after the camp was over, they put on a show to play the songs they had been practicing.

The kids' talent levels ranged from truly amazing to early beginner. Nobody played flawlessly but everybody had a lot of fun. The feedback the kids received was overwhelmingly positive and I think it had the effect of making the kids want to do it again next summer. People were congratulating them on their hard work and learning to play so many songs in very little time.

The kids that played at a high level would probably appreciate some criticism. The kids that were struggling may have been embarrassed and less likely to continue. I could be wrong about that, but it's my gut feeling.

[mjevans]

Lauding the effort publicly seems like good re-enforcement.

The constructive criticism might be better off in a more private and 'safe' (biased towards the receiver) setting; this way shaming someone for a good attempt isn't the result.

[analog31]

My kids are in music lessons, the youth orchestra, etc., as I was at the same age. I also played in a rock band as a kid. I don't think that things have changed at all. Maybe the whole "self esteem" thing is an urban legend.

Everybody's enthusiastic at the performance, like you say.

At the next lesson, they review the recording. But then, they've been receiving that kind of critique at every lesson. You should hear the conductor let 'em have it at orchestra rehearsal. Because of this kind of dialog and close analysis, they also know exactly how well they're playing, immediately and intimately. Part of the goal is to teach kids how to engage in the critical dialog, and to be self-critiquing.

With the typical teen rock band, there is no adult involvement at all, other than fiscal.

[pavel_lishin]

> "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked"

That doesn't sound like very constructive criticism.

[6stringmerc]

It might not sound like it but it actually is quite helpful - translated it means "you are not doing well at a very basic thing and need more practice" because if a guitarist, on stage, can't hit a G-C chord switch competently, then there's really not a lot of wiggle room. They...suck...and need to be shown ways to improve. A lot of times the self-esteem-based response will dismiss the criticism as 'being mean' or some crap when it's actually totally valid.

[sliverstorm]

Do they not know they blew the chord switch? It seems like they'd know that.

[abstractbeliefs]

Probably not - you're supposed to hone your craft through practice before you perform in the way that was described.

If the overall performance was poor, and something so basic was clearly an issue, then maybe they don't realise?

This is like a development candidate being poor at simple interview problems - it simply is the case that often you don't know what you're doing wrong until you've developed skill, but people around you saying you're doing great can suppress your desire to work on that skill in favor of rushing ahead to interview where you fall flat on your face.

[bsder]

The Open Mic D-Chord disagrees with you ...

(An Open Mic D-Chord is a D-Chord (D A D F#) where they don't mute the lowest string and thus put a really nasty sounding E note on the bottom of the chord)

[NTDF9]

>> That doesn't sound like very constructive criticism.

A constructive criticism isn't a one-liner on HN.

If you're skilled enough to show how that transition works, show it to them and make them learn it.

[cwbrandsma]

I think I understand what you are saying...but at the same time, given the example 6stringmerc used, there is nothing to "teach", the student has to practice more. That isn't teachable, the skill is only achieved via practice and work. (I give guitar lesions)

Which we, as a society, also seem reluctant to do. "oh you must not be good at that, try something else", instead of "if you want it you are going to have to work harder"

[maroonblazer]

>guitar lesions

I'm changing the name of my band to this. ;-)

[civilian]

So, guitar is tough. Because it's not that you can teach someone how to do a G-C chord transition. There's no theory or understanding that goes into it.

It's muscle memory, plain and simple. You just have to do it a lot, over and over. I've had music teachers essentially say "that part sucked, you need to spend more time practicing it". There's no trick to be told, there's no intellectualization that will help. Practice.

[pessimizer]

It sounds like extremely constructive criticism to me. More specific than anyone has a right to expect; it's exactly what sounded bad, and exactly what needs to be practiced to sound better.

[jacobolus]

> What I've noticed common among a lot of Americans is a fear/inhibition of speaking the truth, mostly to not have a confrontation.

I’ve found this to more common among other cultural groups (for instance, some of my Indian and Iranian friends). I find Americans are generally on the blunt/direct/plain spoken side, sometimes extremely so.

Can you elaborate on who you’re comparing Americans to, and what contexts you find some other national/cultural group to have a different response?

[kazinator]

> Who's going to tell them, "Hey, your timing on the G-C chord switch sucked"

Why, 90 comments under their shitty YT video, 7 of them heavily upvoted.

[gerbilly]

Do you actually think the kids don't know where they screwed up their parts?

And even if they didn't know, right after the show isn't the time to mention mistakes.

It's hard enough to get up in front of people to speak, much less perform, so I think the situation you describe, if followed later by a discussion on what to improve and work on, is entirely appropriate.

Did you know that Steve Jones, the guitarist from the sex pistols, had to have another guitarist play behind a curtain for him for the first few shows? It didn't stop the band from changing popular music, and it didn't stop him from developing a very tight technique.[1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbSGR846nAg

[onewaystreet]

Most people don't give honest feedback to others. I don't think that is a recent occurrence.

[ekianjo]

> In this performance, the band sucked overall. The guitarist didn't know what he was doing. But everybody (guardians, parents, teachers, friends) just keep saying, "Great performance brah, awesome shit, good going guys" etc.

Also known as the "Everything is Awesome" syndrome. And this is not just for kids. In American companies (at least as far as I could observe), management principles teach you that you should not say anything negative to the employee directly, instead talk about "opportunities for improvement", etc... It's everywhere.

And I wager that the political correctness is also very much linked to that.

[mempko]

Saying "Great, good job" and giving praise is the same as giving a prize or a candy. It is a verbal doggy biscuit.

Reward and punishment externalizes motivation. American's tend to reward and other countries to punishment.

However I bet you in those other countries they hate math just as much as everyone in USA.

If you want people to be intrinsically motivated, rewards like "Great Job, awesome" have the exact opposite effect.