[Mithaldu]

I can understand why some would not like this, and maybe it's because i'm german, but i do not mind this at all. Here's why:

If i'm employed in an office and working at my work pc, not only is the machine often administrated by the company i am doing work for, and thus may have additional software in there, even if it's as simple as a VNC server. It is also on their premises and the screen plainly visible to cameras or other employees that may be around. In the case of open plan offices or offices separated with glass walls, usually straight across the entire office. When i'm in the office i'm supposed to be working, and the machine is supposed to be used for work purposes. Not for entertainment or other personal things.

Similarly, when i am billing hours in the upwork client, i am supposed to be working, not playing around. So the machine does not have private things running on it at the time i am working. The things on screen are work-related and ok to be seen by my clients.

In my view, using my past work experiences as a guide line, same as in the office, if there are things in the screen that i would not want the client to see (or my coworkers/bosses in the office to see) it means that i am doing something wrong and not separating work/private properly.

Mind, if it does happen, it is easy to delete the screenshot even before it is sent on the wire, though that forfeits 10 minutes of billing, which as explained above, is to me exactly as it should be, since i was doing private things on client time.

So i don't see it as an undue burden. It just ensures that i am actually doing what the agreement between the two of us says i should be doing.

And this has a vital advantage to me:

The client can simply look and quickly see that i was working actively on his work, and i don't need to field questions like "This is taking a long time, are you slacking off?", which i then have to answer with "this particular bit is hard and complicated, just trust me on this".

[vanderreeah]

This is an admirably clear statement of a position I find almost impossible to relate to. I'm not sure I can be as lucid as Mithaldu, but I'll try to put it two ways:

1) The notion that one is "doing something wrong" by not being able or willing to enforce a strict separation between work and one's private life seems almost sociopathic. When one sells one's labour his mind and emotions are - like it or not - part of the sale. It's simply the human condition. To absolutely abrogate all of one's interests, in the service of a "boss", requires an austerity of mind that perhaps Mithaldu and some others can perform without difficulty, but which for many is impossible.

2) One could (well, I probably couldn't) make the case that the degree of exploitation that characterises all relations between "boss" and employee is sufficient to permit the importation of at least some safety valve - some kind of relaxation, be it 10 mins personal email, facebook, whatever - in compensation. Indeed if you want to take the employer's POV, it's surely a good thing.

I don't think I've been particularly accurate here but it's a fuzzy approximation of the beginnings of a response!

[Mithaldu]

In both my office and self-employed work regular short breaks for various purposes are part of the norm. (Particularly in places with high percentage of smokers.) This may include short chats or phone calls outside of work purposes as well, but those are not done on work hardware, optimally, though in emergencies that's fine too, as long as they're kept appropiately short.

Note that upwork isn't running a continuous stream, but only taking screenshots every 10 minutes.

[akio]

Your clients are not your bosses though, they are your clients. In your traditional office environment, for example, it would be unusual for the business's clients to require visibility of the business's computers.

[Mithaldu]

In my particular area of work (programmer to hire by hour) the differences between a boss and a client are neglible.

[izacus]

Does your boss stand behind your back every moment of your work day?

[Mithaldu]

No, but for example in my last office job the 3 company founders tended to be walking along the main hallway of the office a lot for various reasons, and my desk was behind a glass wall along that hallway, and in one gig i was in an open plan office where people were moving around me and everyone else all the time.

[triplesec]

You are very accepting of severe authority and surveillance

[detaro]

Working in an open-plan office where people expect that it looks like you are working is "very accepting of surveillance"?

[Mithaldu]

Welcome to Germany.

On a more serious note: No, i am not. Only in my work life.

[Asooka]

> When i'm in the office i'm supposed to be working, and the machine is supposed to be used for work purposes. Not for entertainment or other personal things.

I don't know one engineer who actually does this. The company doesn't own you. They can't dictate your life, thinking anything else is wrong. You own the labour, ergo you own the company, if their business process can't fit itself in your life, they can fuck right off.

[Mithaldu]

Maybe cultural differences. I know a lot of people in Germany who do, and refuse the siren call of throwing Marx' books down in their bosses' offices.

Then again, workers here also enjoy a lot more protections than in other countries, so maybe it's the lack of feeling at odds with the company so much.

[vanderreeah]

A footnote: Germany is notorious for its policy of keeping workers' wages down. This obviously doesn't apply to programmers, but it's worth at least adding parenthetically to your statement that workers "enjoy a lot more protections than in other countries".

[Mithaldu]

> Germany is notorious for its policy of keeping workers' wages down.

Really? This is the first time i've ever heard that. In fact just recently minimum wages have been raised here and many shops complained bitterly.

[vanderreeah]

It's one of the chief causes of the country's economic success. I don't have time to look up the references now. You're right about the recent rise in minimum wage though.

[thatcat]

Maybe it's because a lot of Germans are renting their homes which creates insecurity for the unemployed and protects employers from such antiauthoritarian actions.

[detaro]

Compared to home owners that have mortgages to pay? (If you're the kind of person that can pay for a home with cash, you also can buffer a few months of rent easily)

+ German workers have a lot more protections from actual surveillance compared to many other countries (video surveillance, E-Mail and Internet monitoring, ...).

The actual implementation still depends on the company and the job, as probably everywhere. People that have to be there certain hours to be reachable by customers etc have different attitudes than people who can do their job and leave once they are done for the day, some people mind disruptions more, some people don't care or feel under-paid, ...

[Mithaldu]

There's no insecurity for unemployed people. They're guaranteed to have a roof over their head paid for by the state. In fact employees usually have 6 months firing protection as well, further reducing insecurity.

[brian-armstrong]

What if you accidentally revealed a private key on the screen during the screenshot? Are you willing to forfeit 10 minutes of time to keep your SSH or whatever else uncompromised? Or are you going to trust Upwork and your client to not somehow leak it, even accidentally?

[oarsinsync]

> What if you accidentally revealed a private key on the screen during the screenshot?

You replace the private key with a new one that hasn't been compromised.

> Are you willing to forfeit 10 minutes of time to keep your SSH or whatever else uncompromised?

Too late, it already is.

> Or are you going to trust Upwork and your client to not somehow leak it, even accidentally?

See above. You've already leaked it, it is now compromised and needs replacing. It sucks, but if you adopt a different approach, you're risking a lot of trouble down the road. Private keys are private. The moment you leak it, accidentally or otherwise, it's no longer private and should be replaced.

[Mithaldu]

I delete the segment and enter manual time with an explanation of why i did that. Manual time isn't protected by oDesk in disputes, but in that situation it's fine to use and low risk.

[brian-armstrong]

That's fair. What if you didn't notice that it happened?

It seems like dealing with checking for sensitive onscreen information every 10 minutes could be kind of flow-destroying.

[Mithaldu]

There's a fairly noticable popup, that you can also configure to make a sound; and if you're really worried you can review the screenshots in your work diary at the end of the day.

[cobby]

As far as I know all screenshots are available for clients right away.

[Whachadoo]

I believe it gives you something like 10 seconds to click "delete" before it uploads it, but even then you can click the screenshot from the Upwork client and it'll take you to the work schedule where you can then delete it (removing the time worked / money paid for those 10 minutes).

[rmc]

Or what if you view personal information? Under data protection law, would that could as a data breech?

[Mithaldu]

If you're dealing with personal information you should always handle with conscious care and ensure it is only handled in a way that no data breaches are possible. This does include notifying your client that you'll be doing manual time for a task, or doing it on different hardware.

[coldtea]

>I can understand why some would not like this, and maybe it's because i'm german, but i do not mind this at all.

Well, remember where this attitude took Germany in the previous century....

(tongue in cheek)

[Mithaldu]

I'm from the deep east so i know exactly what you mean. :D

The difference here is of course that in the DDR you weren't asked if it's ok to listen in on you. ;)

[coldtea]

Thanks for taking it lightly, sometimes people are touchy :-)

>The difference here is of course that in the DDR you weren't asked if it's ok to listen in on you. ;)

Yes, but if enough big companies get away with this, then having a choice of "not using Upwork if you don't like it" wont matter much, because you'll be missing where most of the clients are.

In other words, you could still take the principled stance, but it will cost you.

[Mithaldu]

Well, included in not being asked is also that you weren't told when you'd be listened to. With oDesk you know exactly when since it only happens when you push the button. There are no surprises involved, as opposed to the DDR where you could wake up to your door being kicked in because a week ago someone two tables over in the pub heard you gripe.

[triplesec]

This reinforces the impression that you have a very low bar for autonomy and freedom from the panopticon.

[Mithaldu]

Nah, just your lack of knowledge about private/work life separation. :)

[nooorofe]

It happens, my wife send me emails during the day. I wouldn't like somebody see it. Or I want to check my personal email, even if I got an email from my other client (well, imaginary - I don't work as freelancer) why somebody should see it? A task can be done or not dene or NN% done. Why does it matters how exactly the time spent? If something didn't work, it should possible to request actions were taken, work plans, code (even not working) etc.

[almata]

Even when I don't agree with you (I may receive a mail notification with some private content) the system is totally useless as I can have an iPad next to my main computer and use it to spend all the time I want doing other stuff. Or just work with two computers. Or whatever.

[Mithaldu]

The time segments would have indicators of low user activity in that case, plus you'd have the exact same screenshot for a long time in a row.

Yes, you can game it even so, but it would be at least inconvenient for you.

Besides, if you do keep the stuff you don't want your client to see on another machine, then there's no reason to worry about being "spied" on. :)

[xiaoma]

I often take 15 minute walks to think about thorny problems or use a pen and paper to sketch out designs. Either of those would yield "low user activity" indicators.

It's been years since I've been an employee on any sites like that, but I still think the system is pretty bad. Just start with small projects and then scale up for high performing freelancers and don't offer repeat work to low performers.

[Mithaldu]

I do the same. It's fine. :)

Each snapshot is accompanied by a note of what you're working on as well (if you make one). If you're dealing with a client who'd question that, AND not accept/understand explanations, then you'd be dealing with many more problems from them as well, particularly without a work diary.

[almata]

It's not that I worry. It's just that I don't think it's correct. Same way as I don't have anything to hide in my email inbox but I don't like the idea of NSA (or anyone) having reading access to it.

[Mithaldu]

You don't want them reading it if you're working for them, but if they're paying you to do mailing they'd have a right to ask to take a peek in, i think.

[35bge57dtjku]

> and i don't need to field questions like "This is taking a long time, are you slacking off?"

A screenshot taken every 10 minutes in no way proves you aren't slacking off. Your assertion that it protects you like this is specious.

[Mithaldu]

To be more clear on this:

It doesn't mean that IF i get the question, i can say "just look at the log".

It means that i have gotten questions like that and similar before (think "keep a regular logbook of what you're working on") in other jobs; and have never gotten anything like that on Upwork.

You might argue my clients are simply different, and it's possible, but i think i simply don't get things like that because they feel comfortable enough with my work and are mollified by the logs if they have worries.