[Unbeliever69]

Agree 100%. A small step in the right direction. Our criminal justice system needs serious overhauls on SO many levels. Unfortunately, it is not only the fault of law enforcement, politicians, and judges. They are simply representing the will of the people. The heart of American citizens need to change. We live in such an unforgiving society. Despite what anyone says, America and Americans don't believe in 2nd chances. Anyone that survives our legal system and incarceration will NEVER have a true 2nd chance because we as Americans cannot and will not collectively forgive. I blame the media to be honest for perpetuating fear in the hearts of the masses. We live in a sad country filled with sad, fearful, unforgiving people. Maybe a blanket statement, but one that I believe to be true.

[stcredzero]

Despite what anyone says, America and Americans don't believe in 2nd chances.

I have seen first-hand that America and Americans can believe in 2nd chances, particularly if the perpetrator is white and comes from a middle/upper-middle class background. Police and the DA are willing to soft-pedal the charges. The prosecutor is willing to plea-bargain away and otherwise chip away at the penalty. (Even giving away 1/2 year of probation, beyond the wishes of the victim.) I've seen first-hand that 2 counts of felony assault can be whittled down to 1 year of probation -- provided the assailant is white and can afford good lawyers. White lives and white dignity matter the most in the US -- even in California and the Bay Area. Perhaps especially so.

[toomanybeersies]

I'm not American, so I don't really know what it's like there, but is it a race issue, or a class issue?

Would a well known/well off black person who can hire good lawyers be able to whittle down 2 counts of felony assault to a year of probation?

Here in New Zealand, the son of the Maori King (a purely ceremonial and symbolic role for our native people), who was something like 3rd in line for the throne, got off a theft and drink driving conviction because he would be ineligible to hold the throne if convicted. He was eventually convicted after public outcry.

[porpoisemonkey]

There are two separate issues.

One is the disproportionate attention minority races get from the police. It's not hard evidence but here's a CNN report discussing the profiling that wealthy blacks receive in the United States.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/14/news/economy/wealthy-blacks-...

The second is the disproportionate sentencing for similar or identical crimes. Again without any hard data this seems to be mostly a class based issue. One commonly cited example of this is the differences in mandatory minimum sentences between crack cocaine and regular cocaine. Crack cocaine is often associated with lower classes due to being cheaper to acquire than powdered cocaine. Additionally there are significant differences between the legal representation that can be afforded at different levels of income.

Coupled with issue 1 this creates a disparity in how the US justice system treats minorities.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2010/08/03/data-show-rac...

[rblatz]

The typical ingestion method between crack and powder cocaine are drastically different. The way the body absorbs both drugs is different and the impact the drug has on its users and society is much different.

Just because things are chemically similar doesn't mean they are the same, nor should they bet treated the same.

But I do agree that on the whole white people get cut breaks where minorities would not. I just don't think the crack/coke example is a very strong one.

[ryanlol]

>the impact the drug has on its users and society is much different.

Would you like to expand on those? I don't see why crack would be any worse than normal coke. In fact, considering the effects are significantly shorter it seems much more suitable for a productive lifestyle.

[nickff]

Crack has a much more intense, shorter high, and is much more closely associated with negative life outcomes than powder cocaine. Powder cocaine users tend to be much more high functioning than crack users.

Many of the laws tough on crack cocaine were brought in during the 80s and 90s when crack was thought (perhaps accurately) to be tearing African American communities apart, and many of the campaigners for the tough laws were African American community leaders.

[brokenmachine]

Lol, crack is much more suitable for a productive lifestyle!!

I was under the impression (maybe untrue) that it was more intense/addictive, but maybe that's just media bias working on me.

[abricot]

Does the law require taking chemistry into account for sentencing? Is Crack and Cocaine different classes of drugs?

[nickff]

There are many different laws and sentencing guidelines, and many of them do differentiate between the two forms (?) of cocaine.

[stcredzero]

is it a race issue, or a class issue?

It's the unfortunate historical circumstance of race having become a fairly reliable marker for class. This is in turn a holdover from race having become a fairly reliable marker of slave status. I've come to think of many of the stickiest problems of the 21st century as holdovers from a past world that had the morality of Game of Thrones.

[dalore]

In Westeros slavery is outlawed but widespread in the East. Slavery is also a major topic in the book.

[internaut]

It's a class issue.

Americans confuse a former iconography (civil rights era) with existing circumstances. Today they have a class divide, not a racial one. That many POCs are in one class and not another is misdirecting idealism. The plight of urban blacks is so well documented that it is a television trope, but the poverty that exists in the countryside and even entire cities stagnating and evidence of decay is more or less ignored e.g. Note how the Tiny House movement is an attempt for 'middle class' poor mostly to differentiate themselves from 'those people' living in trailer parks (who in turn would be appalled if they were conflated with those living in section 9). Presiding over it all is of course the spread of the gated communities. This is all an emergent class structure similar to the one that developed in Europe centuries ago.

In my country, any time we hear of Southerners, the implication is immediately that they are red necks, racists, ignorant jesus freaks.

We don't get that from our television or radio. We get it from your movies, television and radio.

Many europeans don't realize they are inadvertently being drawn into (one side of) a culture war on a different Continent e.g. see BLM protests in London.

[Throwaway23412]

"iconography"? Dr. MLK, Jr. literally died 48 years ago. There are people who marched with him still alive today. I don't really get this fantasy that what MLK was protesting just magically went away in less than five decades. We've had wars last longer than that.

People who say "It's a class issue" seem to miss that it's much easier to recognize race than class.

People discriminated through redlining (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining) would disagree that "It's a class issue":

>For example, in Atlanta in the 1980s, a Pulitzer Prize-winning series of articles by investigative-reporter Bill Dedman showed that banks would often lend to lower-income whites but not to middle- or upper-income blacks.

People who read the stats showing the differences in sentencing between black males and white males, even when controlled for income, would hardly say "It's a class issue."

[internaut]

I didn't claim racism does not exist. I'm aware of the things you mentioned.

I am saying it mostly does not matter. I'm also aware this is not a popular view, but put that down to conditioning by the media. Their specialty is to draw attention to some things and not others depending on their bias after all. If the media people don't know, then you won't know, they only see the visible things and the death of investigative journalism and lack of serious big-picture reporting not in service to a paymaster has given them tunnel vision.

Suppose you 'solved' racism.

You would still have all the problems you have today. None of the education, poverty issues are going away just because of a lack of discrimination. Economics is tied up with class in a way it is not with race. The good news is that solving economic problems can solve for social issues like class conflict. Many migrants to America were from the bottom classes of Europe and they did very well for themselves when out from under the thumb of the old system.

Europeans have been dealing with class issues for centuries and we know what they look like. You don't have our history, yet, but you're going to. Social mobility in Europe is higher in Europe than in the US now, although perceptions have that in reverse.

If you believe otherwise then you believe that the US is following a different trajectory than nations before it, and I see no evidence for that belief.

[exclusiv]

5 decades is a long time. Look how far Japan and Germany went 50 yrs from WWII.

[porpoisemonkey]

I don't think the conclusion that it's solely, or even mostly, class based is correct.

Up until the 1965 there was open discrimination towards minorities enshrined in law. That's a mere 51 years ago from today - well within the lifespan of Americans living now. The United States also has a well-documented history of active disenfranchisement of different races.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Chinese_legislation_in_th... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America...

Just about every crime statistic you'll come across also shows higher incarceration rates for minorities however the number of impoverished Americans of caucasian ancestry dwarfs any other minority group.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

My own personal experience growing up in the American Midwest is that racism is alive and well in those areas. I vividly remember open and profane discussions about blacks amongst the local population being spouted by both adolescents and adults. This included the gratuitous use of what is colloquially referred to as the N-word (in the offensive fashion).

[internaut]

I believe you. It is just that there exist black communities outside of the US, both in majority white countries and in Africa, which have managed to improve their circumstances radically (sometimes from a very low point, but that definitely counts). The experience of stagnation is acute in American society despite overall higher levels of wealth. If one supposes the lower branches of the social mobility tree have been lopped off then it makes sense.

None of this is to say racism does not exist. I've heard plenty of talk about niggers and kikes before also. Plenty of racism in black and white communities is extant. I believe affirmative action is an example of, and an encouragement to, racism.

It is that class dwarfs all other issues in relation to inequality.

If you have the wrong accent, ghetto or southern, you aren't going anywhere in society. Getting elocution lessons and changing your name are tactics that would further your status in American society.

To put it in this way: perhaps at most hundreds of thousands to low millions are badly discriminated against on racial bias but anywhere from ten to hundred million people are affected by classism. Scale matters!

Look at how Hulk Hogan needed the backing of a billionaire, to get his lawsuit funded against Gawker. This is evidence of wealth discrimination (a big proxy for class), and we're talking about the justice system discriminating against a millionaire here! From here it can only get worse the poorer or lower your status is.

[acjohnson55]

People said the same thing 100 years ago. "Black folks are free, what's their excuse now?" Looking back, it's pretty obvious. 50 years ago, Jim Crow was officially over, yet many extremely racist policies persisted. To this day, we have racist policies, even if not as brutally as in the past.

[John23832]

Sadly, in America race often defines your class.

[miller_joe]

OJ Simpson

[ashitlerferad]

We need a justice system that is not so focussed on penalties.

[koenigdavidmj]

The will of the people is delight at prisoners being anally raped. Sometimes the state needs to do something different.

[smadge]

True it's absolutely disgusting that prison rape is a punchline. There's not even a setup to the joke, just "you'll get raped in prison."

[eeeeeeeeeeeee]

I completely agree. And considering forgiveness is such a core tenant of Christianity, it's surprising that people call the U.S. a Christian nation. Our use of capital punishment is also bizarre when you factor in the religious component. Or the utter lack of care for the poor.

And I'm not saying religion should influence our laws, but I find the hypocrisy astounding when the far right in this country is hell-bent on pushing their religious beliefs into our laws and government policies (abortion, birth control, marriage, etc).

[micaksica]

> I find the hypocrisy astounding when the far right in this country is hell-bent on pushing their religious beliefs into our laws and government policies (abortion, birth control, marriage, etc).

While I have met many Christians in America that do live by their beliefs, I have found the majority of these self-professed "Christians" I have met are simply using the term as a tribal banner in which to wage a cultural war that enriches them and continues their evolutionary propagation at the expense of those that are not of the typical WASP voting bloc. The Christian doctrine of acceptance and tolerance appears long lost, and this same bigoted crowd often seems to be those that wonder why it is many people have turned to secularism.

Those wishing extreme "punishment" on those we incarcerate -- and are supposed to rehabilitate -- are wishing to play the role of the God of the Old Testament, not follow the teachings of their messiah.

[sfrailsdev]

Maybe, but Martin Luther King Jr. was a reverend, and I have friends who attend GLBT or African American Churches that I'd never call part of the religious right. And even within the right, there are lots of different types of people.

I am not super informed about Christianity in America, but it strikes me as a topic more complex and nuanced then your words might suggest you believe, and as a group more varied then you seem to have experienced.

[nsxwolf]

I am Christian that does not claim the US is a Christian nation for precisely the reason you describe - forgiveness simply isn't an American value. We value punishment, stigmatization, and maintaining their permanence via information technology.

We only forgive when it's convenient or necessary - thus Apple's hypocrisy in hiring an abusive misogynist like Dr. Dre, with Tim Cook issuing a statement that more honestly should have read "This is a multi billion dollar deal, damnit! It needs to happen so you WILL forgive him!"

[BinaryIdiot]

> the far right in this country is hell-bent on pushing their religious beliefs into our laws and government policies (abortion, birth control, marriage, etc).

To be fair I know many conservatives who are atheists who still have issues with abortion and one of them even with birth control. True it's typically a religious set of ideas that guide those groups but I would hesitate to say it's all of them.

[kajjffkk]

> Or the utter lack of care for the poor.

In the United States, compared to all countries I know of, there is huge aggregate care for the poor on the private individual, NFP organization, state and federal level.

The baseline quality of life, again relatively speaking, is enormous even if your income is below the federal poverty line. The environment is great, services “just work", and people are generally pretty friendly.

I think its ok to focus on the shortcomings because you can then improve them. But relatively speaking, I couldnt think of a better place to be poor.

[stolsvik]

Check out Scandinavia..

[ausvisaissues]

> And considering forgiveness is such a core tenant of Christianity,

In civilization, individual members give up the right for revenge to the state, who punishes perpetrators. Individuals may forgive a perpetrator, but that doesn't mean he/she should not be punished by the state.

Compare this with societies with practices such as qisas or blood money: if an individual (or family) forgives a perpetrator, they are not punished.

Having the government punishing people and the main religion stopping revenge cycles is a really good system!

Furthermore, the USA is lenient in sentencing and family are forging towards convicts. Compare this to Asian countries (such as Japan). In Japan, parents will break off all ties to their children if they are sentenced for a crime -- even a fairly minor one.

Try to do some petty vandalism or other anti-social behaviour in Japan, Korea or Singapore and compare the result with the result in the US.

[selimthegrim]

Downsides of qisas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident

[rblatz]

That's reads more like spies doing spy stuff with other spies. The guy was going to get out of it anyway, but blood money was the most politically sensitive way for the US and Pakistan to deal with the issue.

[zhemao]

On the other hand, those countries have very low crime rates and incarceration rates, so ...

[nicklaf]

According to René Girard, the defining characteristic of Christianity is the end of sacrificial violence against scapegoats.

So yes, it would make sense for a truly Christian nation to show far greater compassion than do Christian conservatives, who would have us believe that the United States was founded on Christian principles.

[ladzoppelin]

This is complete nonsense. Money has influenced these policies and most "Americans" tune out the process.

[rayiner]

Money from where? Look at the graph of U.S. incarceration rate: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/U..... The inflection point is around 1975-1980--a response to a spike in crime that started in the 1960s. The first private prison operator (CCA) wasn't even founded until 1983 and even in the 1990's, it was losing money.

The whole "private prisons cause incarceration" shtick is the same as "umbrella sales cause rain." No, rain came first, umbrella companies came after as a way to profit from rain.

[John23832]

> a response to a spike in crime that started in the 1960s

Care to back that statement up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs

Crime and punishment is a for profit business. If you don't believe that... well then I don't know what to tell you. The War on Drugs, DRAMATICALLY increased the prison populations in the United States. States that saw an explosion in their prison populations and that we strapped for cash / didn't care to deal with the incarcerated (particularly southern states) turned to private industry to house their incarcerated populations.

> Money from where?

What money? Taxpayer money. And once private business get's a taste of blood, and politicians in the US get that first taste of kickback money, we all know where it goes from there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_comp...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline

If WE as a society decide that WE want to sent people to prison, WE should have to deal with the consequences of it. WE should be responsible for the incarcerated. WE should be who those prisoners are reporting to. After all, WE should have reform as the end goal. We should't have some black box prison company as the intermediary who's best interest it is to hush, abuse and prevent reform of prisoners in order to keep them coming and their pockets fat.

[rayiner]

The spike in crime started in the 1960s. Incarceration rate started ramping up in the 1970s. Drug war started ramping up in the 1980s. Private prisons started ramping up in the 1990s. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.factch...

Your theory of causation (kickbacks from private prison companies cause harsher laws and more incarceration), though popular, doesn't explain the data. If you look at the ordering of events, what makes more sense is actually the opposite causation. Crime started going up in the 1960s due to depopulation of the cities and exporting jobs. Drugs got blamed as the bogeyman, which got the drug war started in the 1970s and 1980s. Fed up with skyrocketing crime, people voted for tough on crime laws (by huge margins and often in public referendums rather than legislation) in the 1970 through 1990s. And the last step in the chain, in the 1990s and 2000s, was private companies springing up to take advantage of the massive growth in need for prisons.

[rlucas]

One need not posit a theory of causation here to have a legitimate concern about the role of private industry in influencing the criminal justice complex.

In fact, one could take all of rayiner's assertions at face value and still share GP's concerns.

There are many many examples where private, for profit industry may not have nefariously instigated some governmental program, but surely fights to expand and continue it.

For example, we need not think that WWII was entered at the behest of a nascent aero-defense industry in order to boost revenue, but look what happened. (and ask that lefty Dwight Eisenhower, who coined the very term "military-industrial complex" in a warning speech to the republic as he left office)

Similarly, the utter buffoonery of our health care "insurance" industry is directly a consequence of some mid-century tax code finagling which made health "insurance" a deductible pretax employee benefit. Did those who would someday run the "blues" collude to create that system in some plot? No, but once it was well entrenched, the lock-in started with big money and big influence.

Did a bunch of far sighted conspirators get together to create the mortgage GSEs so that decades hence they could dole out lucrative sinecures? No, but once in place... etc.

The debunking of loosely reasoned talking points is, of course, the brand promise of a rayiner comment, but in this case he goes too far. There most certainly are self-perpetuating loops in government-business symbiote combinations and to deny them is willful blindness.

[John23832]

You're taking to events, that are 15 years apart, and tying them together. But I've given you another event that's closer on the timeline, and you deny it's connection.

The Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act was passed in 1970. Nixon pushed drugs as "Public Enemy #1" in 1971. The DEA was founded in 1973. All of these things were done/created to chase drugs. To imprison people who were associated/profited from drugs. All of these things coincide with the prison population inflection point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs#/media/File:US_in...

The recent revelation that the Nixon administration focused on associating subversives (black people and young educated white kids) with negative "illegal" actions (black people with drugs and young white kids with communist/socialist) only underscored my argument. Especially if you take into account things like the CIA association with the Contras. The government had/has a hand in making certain segments of society illegal and imprisoning them.

I agree, the public supported a tough on crime approach. They supported it with Nixon, Bush Sr. and even with Clinton. But the government told/tells people what crime is. And it is fact that a lot more "crime" came to our attention at the start of the drug war. A drug war that happened to take place in "problem"/"subversive" communities. A drug war that happened to take place when an agency in our own government, which was tasked with stoping subversion, had it's hand in moving drugs into those same communities.

Move the drugs, lets the drugs proliferate, let the increased police presence from the drug war quell subversion.

The fallout was the prison industrial complex and the private prison industry.

I'm not saying that the private prison problem came first, but at this point they damn sure have enough power and money to make sure that they're not going away any time soon.

[swyman]

Does it need to be the main cause (or even a cause at all) of the initial jump in incarceration rates for private prisons and their lobbying (and incentives in general) to be objectionable? There's a group of relatively influential people and businesses who have a direct economic incentive to prevent the rehabilitation of prisoners and to lobby for harsher penalties across the board. At a systems level, I'd argue that needs fixing.

[rayiner]

I didn't say that private prisons aren't a problem worth fixing. But every time private prisons get trotted out as the explanation for the problems with the justice system, it's yet another lost opportunity to understand the real problems.

CCA isn't the problem. They're just opportunists. Part of the real problem is all the parents and teachers shrieking "just say no!" all through the 1980s and 1990s who voted dutifully for three strikes laws, "probation reform," etc. The other part of the problem is Americans: we're the most violent people in the developed world, with crime rates that are, even after decades of decline, several times higher than in Europe.

[MrFantastic]

Luckily our judicial branch isn't affected by bribes from for-profit prisons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

I'm sure the $45+ million spent lobbying congress had nothing to do with increasing private prisons 'clients' and keeping prohibition of cannabis. https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/...

/sarcasm

[wehadfun]

Just want to comment that according to the documentary about the Kids for Cash scandal the media made it seem worse then it was.

Their side of the story was that Pennsylvanian's children correction facilities were crap and he did not feel comfortable sending kids there. He organized a group of investors to pay for a new facility. The real estate developer who got the contract to build it paid the judge a "finders fee" for the referral. The Judges didn't report the money. As far as the harsh sentences the judge was doing that for years as an over reaction to the Columbine thing. It's an interesting doc suggest checking it out.

[winfred]

I think you stopped watching half way through. If you'd watch the rest of the documentary, they provide some details on how that "finders fee" was paid, it was paid out in contracts to one of the judges side businesses and then distributed to other companies to finally end up in the pockets of the judges. Does that sound like a honest "finders fee" to you? I don't care how the judges in question formulated it, the method by which the money was laundered clearly shows the maliciousness of their intent. They even admit it by stating they laundered the money both to avoid taxation and because they "knew it would look bad".

[BinaryIdiot]

> The whole "private prisons cause incarceration" shtick is the same as "umbrella sales cause rain." No, rain came first, umbrella companies came after as a way to profit from rain.

You're right and wrong at the same time :)

The first time someone goes to prison is certainly not the private prison's fault (at least not directly; if they have family constantly in prison that can certainly harm and even guide someone to crime). The problem comes with repeat incarcerations. The private prison is incentivized to have people released with little to no help / guidance and the path of least resistance is returning to crime.

Yes private prisons are not 100% to blame for someone returning to crime. But we have shown through many rehabilitation problems that a large majority of prisoners can return and become productive. But when you're optimizing for the most amount of money you can get (which is currently head count for private prisons) you have zero incentive to pay for programs to help rehabilitate prisoners.

[kazagistar]

Public prisons aren't exactly incentivized to keep repeat incarceration low either. Is there evidence that rehabilitation is worse in private prisons?

[BinaryIdiot]

> Is there evidence that rehabilitation is worse in private prisons?

I could have sworn there was but I'm having a hard time finding a reliable source (just plenty of blogs and anecdotes) so I could be wrong. At least it makes sense to me, logically, but I have no idea if that's the real case.

[wyaeld]

Strawman analogy. There is a key difference

Umbrellas's can't lobby or pay politicians for more rain.

[michaelmrose]

Are you claiming police and prison guard lobbying isn't a real thing?

[Daishiman]

Ever heard any elected American politician running on a platform of shorter sentences, rehabilitation and reducing prison population?

[Chathamization]

A number of politicians have advocated that, particularly when it comes to non-violent drug offenses. Clinton, for example, is running on that platform:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-refor...

Though I should say that I'm not sure shorter sentences across the board are what's needed. We definitely need shorter sentences for non-violent drug offenses, and shorter sentences for inmates who seem like they can be rehabilitated is a good idea.

On the other hand, I infrequently read about cases in the news where some deeply disturbed individual commits a truly heinous crime, and then is back out in the general population after only 2 or 3 years. There are some people who really should be in for a longer time.

I often look at sentencing through the lens of "how would I feel if this person lived in my neighborhood." Someone like Mumia Abu-Jamal is in for life, but I wouldn't be particularly bothered if he lived next door to me (or Bernie Madoff, sentenced to 150 years). Then there are people who only get a few years, but I wouldn't want them living anywhere near me.

[cmdrfred]

I find her stance on prisons hard to believe considering her comments[0] as first lady. You might believe she changed but it shows a massive error in judgement at very least.

[0]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4nmRZx9nc

[nck4222]

You're commenting in a thread that's advocating for the need to give people second chances, but you have a problem with a politician because they said something 22 years ago that you disagree with.

If you hold everyone to that standard you'll never be able to trust anything anyone says.

[cmdrfred]

>If you hold everyone to that standard you'll never be able to trust anything anyone says.

Can you link to the Bernie Sanders super predator video? Do you know why you can't find it? Integrity. Is that really an unreasonable requirement in this day and age?

[ashitlerferad]

Prison doesn't make deeply disturbed individuals less disturbed.

[Chathamization]

True, and some people should probably be removed from society in general. Give them a pleasant life, but understand that they are too dangerous to allow back into society. We expect common citizens to be willing to sacrifice their lives in defense of our society. I don't think asking someone who was trying to murder random strangers (for example) to sacrifice their freedom is asking too much.

[ashitlerferad]

> Give them a pleasant life

Perhaps a farm surrounded by a giant concrete/steel wall would be better for everyone than prison is.

[kavbojka]

Precisely.

[erichocean]

> running on a platform of shorter sentences

Trump?

Oh, you meant criminal sentencing, not grammar. Got it.

[mahyarm]

Well if these two passing california props are any indicator, yes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/california-prop-36_...

http://www.latimes.com/local/politics/la-me-ff-pol-propositi...

[cmdrfred]

I did hear of a guy like that once but it turns out I would be sexist if I didn't vote for his opponent. You see, it was her turn.

[MGMXI]

Agreed. @Unbeliever69 Don't flatter Americans with this being our "will". It's a select group of people deciding on policies and their oversights are ultimately permitted by the public's indifference towards the political process.

[shkkmo]

I believe Unbeliever69 is referring the difficulties involved in finding jobs or housing once you have a criminal record. That isn't just 'policies', that is the result of the individual actions people take. There certainly are exceptions, but those exceptions tent to prove the rule.

[tn13]

> We live in a sad country filled with sad, fearful, unforgiving people. Maybe a blanket statement, but one that I believe to be true.

I have personally found American people to be very cheerful and forgiving too. Land of second opportunities! But people are super insecure. They are not willing to stand up for the rights of criminals no matter what the crime is. It makes politician's life far more easier.

[bradleyankrom]

I don't think it's necessarily the will of the people that they are representing, unless you mean 'people' in the Citizens United sense.

[daveheq]

Actually they're also under the will of decades of law enforcement philosophy based on old opinions and facts. Example is when federal and state chiefs argue for keeping marijuana a Schedule 1 substance against modern scientific studies, though it could be argued they just don't want to lose jobs or spending.

[helthanatos]

We need 40 lashes instead of 2 years in prison. We need a harsher system that accurately punishes crime.

[nostrebored]

People can downvote you all they want, but this has certainly worked well for Singapore.

[mahyarm]

I wouldn't mind if your given a choice of 40 lashes vs. prison time. I would definitely take a temporary few days of pain over years or weeks of my life wasted in the psychological torture known as prison.

[Unbeliever69]

The time isn't the problem. It's living with a felony on your record that is a problem.

[jonathankoren]

And Iran cuts thieves hands off with band saw.[0] What's your point? Barbarism "works"? No thanks.

[0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/98...

[kazagistar]

Incarceration as practiced in the USA is also barbarism.

[nostrebored]

If you can't see that comparing welts on your butt for a week vs. lopping off a hand is hyperbolic, then I doubt that you're coming into this in good faith.

Harsh punishments do work, when you apply them consistently and early on. While you may think that being caned is harsh, most people I've talked to would prefer to be caned over a month in prison.

Singapore's use of the death penalty is a fairly good example. Kidnapping is a capitol offense -- consequently you see young kids walking around the Singapore alone and taking buses on their own.

[jonathankoren]

Forgive me, for wanting to see an actual study instead of taking an internet commenter's assertion over the efficacy of "harsh punishments." Especially since "welts on your butt" is a gross mischaracterization[-1][-2]

The consensus among criminologists is that capital punishment isn't a deterrent.[0] That's why capital punishment advocates rely on emotional arguments around punitive and revenge. And a counter anecdote, you can see children playing and navigating cities alone in The Netherlands and across Europe, and none of those countries have capital punishment.

Furthermore, crime is actually at historic lows.[1] In fact, it's categorically safer now, than it was when you were a kid, or when your parents were kids. Thirdly, kidnappings occur primarily by estranged parents, and is also lower now than ever.[2] Pedobear in the van with "FREE KANDEE!" scrawled on the side in crayon is exceptionally rare. If your kid wants to ride the bus alone, you totally should let them. It's a fun, safe, adventure. In fact, kids do it the United States every day.[3]

[-2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Medical_tr...

[-1] http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159

[0] http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/study-88-criminologists-do-n...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-mis...

[3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/parenting/wp/2015/05/26/...

[rm_-rf_slash]

While I agree with the downvoting of this comment for the primitive perspective, I do also agree with the sentiment. Prison time does very little to change people and makes them more likely to re-offend.

What matters is repaying the "debt" to society. Hard to do when a year in prison can cost more to the taxpayer than a year at Harvard.

[ryanlol]

>Prison time does very little to change people

Probably most out-of-touch statement of the year.

[gleenn]

I'm assuming they meant change for the good, not just change.

[rjbwork]

I think he means in a positive manner.

[rm_-rf_slash]

As in change people from being the kind of person that does things that get them into prison.

[winfred]

>We need 40 lashes instead of 2 years in prison.

Masochists all over the world support your cause.

[helthanatos]

1) It's cheaper. 2) It's actually more humane if you think about it.

[slavik81]

On the plus side, it seems attitudes have been improving (PDF): https://opportunityagenda.org/files/field_file/2014.08.23-Cr...