[newdaynewuser]

I got into 10,000 steps craze, thanks in part to my company providing Fitbits. I was not really a health nut, just 3 days a week at gym, lifting and cardio. I had a bit of muscle definition. Gym was just something I did like brushing teeth. I didn't focus my life around it.

Due to incentives and competition among co-workers, I got into Fitbit seriously. While it was fun, but after a few months, not only I lost some definition but also gained weight. I was expecting to lose muscle mass but didn't know that 10000 steps spread out throughout day were not enough activity.

Now I realize Fitbits are great for extremely unhealthy or lazy people. But those of us who been working out without any devices should stay away from any such devices. And not change your workout routines.

It is too late for me, now I cannot workout without a device and some nice charts. I ended up getting a HRM based device. I like the charts it provides but I was happy using mirror to judge how much I needed to workout. And I didn't need any external motivation back then.

[_lex]

Yeah, something that most people don't know is that extrinsic motivation dissolves intrinsic motivation.

see http://www.spring.org.uk/2009/10/how-rewards-can-backfire-an...

This means that fitbit will leave you as either a fitbit addict (if you stick with it), or as someone who's less healthy than you would have been otherwise (if you don't, because now you'll exercise less on your own).

[eru]

I heard that these studies are, like all social studies, to be taken with a grain of salt. They don't replicate well.

[runarberg]

I don't know about that. It should be fairly easy to study (and hence replicate).

1. Find a group of animals (preferably humans, but dogs, rats, pigeons, etc. should also work just fine).

2. Target a specific unnecessary behavior pattern (hobby) that all individual engage in.

3. Measure the baseline rate of that activity.

4. Introduce a reward:

4a. For a randomly selected subset the reward follows imminently the targeted behavior.

4b. For the rest they'll receive the "reward" equally often but at a time independent of the targeted behavior.

5. Drop the reward.

6. Let some time pass.

7. Measure the drop/increase in the behavior from the baseline measure.

---

[edit] format.

[Throwaway23412]

Yeah, if you're someone who's already spending three days a week at the gym, you probably don't need a Fitbit. Especially in the GP's case where it seems like he may have substituted his gym time with a Fitbit.

[schoen]

The FSF has had this 1987 newspaper article on their web site for a long time:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

There's also a psychology experiment in which people who were paid to argue for a position reported less belief in it afterward compared to people who argued for it for free (but I don't remember the citation). Apparently all of these things may be described as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect

[irremediable]

Ah damnit, what?!

Due to my intense procrastination, when people say "something that most people don't know" [1] I've usually at least heard of it. But somehow this has completely slipped under my radar. Makes me rethink a lot of how I understand motivation.

[1] (On the Internet, in certain circles, for certain topics.)

[ThrustVectoring]

I've been reading "Punished By Rewards" (http://www.amazon.com/Punished-Rewards-Trouble-Incentive-Pra...) and it got into a lot of that. Pop behaviorism has really deep roots on the collective American psyche.

[andersonmvd]

The article is very cool. It made me remember that I saw it somewhere, and that's the candle problem TED talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation I had a good time watching it.

[adamio]

A good warning for some "gamification" engagement strategies

[aivosha]

rewards are strongly tied to dopamine release in the brain. suggest watching Ropert Sapolsky's lectures on Human Behavioral Biology [1]. i learned alot from them. i keep rewatching/relistening to his lectures and every time i learn something new.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNnIGh9g6fA

[irln]

I agree that 10,000 walking steps isn't enough, however, it's a great metric for monitoring throughout the day and realizing (on occasion) you haven't done much for the day and you need to get out and hustle.

Also, on the Fitbit, their analysis of a particular run with regard to your heart rate is very helpful.

[dogma1138]

10K steps is about 8KM for an average person if you walk 8KM a day it will have a very positive effect on your health unless you are really in shape already.

[jrockway]

The problem is that it takes time; for the same amount of time you can have a better "training effect". For less time you can have the same training effect. An hour sauntering around the city takes as much time as an hour biking at your lactate threshold. But your heart works a lot harder for that hour of biking compared to standing around waiting for traffic lights to change.

Both are better than an hour spent replying to comments on HN, though!

[Thlom]

I don't excercise at all and usually get 10-12k steps. You should be able to integrate about 10k steps in your day to day life. Stop driving everywhere, walk while on the phone, walk the dog(if you have one).

[dogma1138]

That's not exactly correct here is a good personal example. About 8-9 months ago I decided to walk to work only (I live in London, which is bike friendly but not that much) the overall "round trip" I take from home to work and back is 7.5KM (4.7 miles on Gmaps).

I split that trip into a shorter path which it use to get from home to work and a slightly longer path all and all it takes me about an hour and 15-20 min (~30-35 min short path, ~45-50 split longer path) depending on the pace to walk through that which means that I walk at about 5.8 KM/H which is a very decent pace for walking in daily cloths not on a treadmill without actually having to jog and even tho I still visit the gym 2-3 times a week this had a very good positive effect on both my mental (I don't get cranky to work, and I can blow off steam on the way home, and I don't have to cramp myself into the tube during rush hour even if it's only 4 stops for myself personally) and physical (better weight management, more energy, can push my self harder at the gym etc.) health.

Now could I say replace this with a higher intensity exercise? well yes and no, for higher intensity exercise it will mean that I need to both have a change of cloths and a place to take a quick shower this logistically complicates it sufficiently enough for me to not be that much of a viable solution.

Can I say use a bike to cover the same distance at more or less the same intensity? well sure however I will have to buy a bike (which isn't that cheap), have a place to store that bike at my work place (and while I might stat my day at the office I might not end it there and vise versa), and most importantly being sufficiently confident in my biking abilities to ride a bike in city traffic (UK drivers are utter cunts to bikes and pedestrians) which I do not have, I've written a bike when I was a kid, I did some cross-country biking when I was older but never had to ride with traffic and I much rather pass on that opportunity because I know it will not end up well for me.

10,000 steps isn't some mandate it's a good baseline for people who are at an average shape or worse and it's a good "quantifier" to evaluate the overall effectiveness of the amount of activity you do e.g. 1.2-1.5 hours of walking, vs 50 min of biking vs 30 min of swimming vs 45 min of running etc.

P.S. Getting your heart rate to higher levels isn't that important, getting it to an elevated but a sustainable level for the duration of the exercise is. Go do some deadlift at the gym your heart rate will spike for those 20-30 seconds but it's really not that healthy either. So unless you are already at a good enough shape to say bring your heart rate safely to say 130 and keep it there for 30-60 min you better off start doing something less intensive until you can bring your resting heart rate down if not the same intensity that will bring a good shape person to 130 will bring you to 160+ and if you are above 30 that might be a bit risky.

[rhodysurf]

Or you could wear the devices and not focus on statistics until after the fact. I dont really pay attention to my stats day to day, but its cool to me to see trends in my exercise and weight.

[coldtea]

>I was not really a health nut, just 3 days a week at gym, lifting and cardio.

That qualifies as a health nut compared to 99% of the population!

[ldehaan]

I find this an interesting viewpoint. For me my exercise tracking is more useful as a metric to establish a good workout routine. Once I have it down then I can track my variations throughout the week and correlate that with work habits (I work from home half the time and half the time go into the office) so that I can make sure to set aside time to achieve those numbers as often as I can.

This and tracking food consumption has helped me lose 50 pounds over the past 7 months, and I can actually look at my graphs and see trends and hopefully I'll see even more as the years progress. I also picked up a Zeo from a recommendation on security now, and that helps me track my sleep patterns, which will hopefully help me figure out the best routines that I can utilize throughout the year to maintain optimal mental and physical happiness :) Sometimes it's not the tool.

[newdaynewuser]

I think you are using it right. I used it completely wrong by cutting out more intense exercise and focusing on competing with co-workers instead of myself.

[brlewis]

Are you sure the extrinsic motivation was what caused your decreased intrinsic motivation? Exercise motivation slides downward for just about everybody for many reasons or no reason.

And do you mind sharing your age? Lots of people hit a point of metabolic change somewhere between ... 20-40?

[newdaynewuser]

No I don't mind, I am 35. I was about 170 lb before I got into Fitbit about 3 years ago. I gained 15 lb chasing 10k steps. It might be metabolic change. But last year I stopped using Fitbit and switched to Polar watch with HRM. I am down to 177 lb now. My RHR has always been around 55bpm, it didn't really change when I cut out gym.

The thing is that I really believed in 10K steps being enough to stay healthy. So I gave up weights & running which I did not do out of joy but as something that you do. If they invent once a month toothpaste, I will switch to it. If I don't have to run and get sweaty, then I am all for it.

10K steps was easy for me. Before Fitbit, I might get 4-5K steps without any effort. After Fitbit I started going on longer dog walks (3-4K steps). Started doing house chores in the most inefficient manners (1-2K). I would walk around office a lot (3-5K). If I was still short at the end of day, I will watch TV while stepping in a place. On weekends, I preferred hiking to swimming.

I can see how extra 5K steps a day didn't require any significant effort for me. So it would have made no difference for me. I can see from this thread that many people struggle with that so it makes sense for them to hit 10K steps goal.

[aytekin]

The original article is saying that 5K steps is enough and additional steps are not required to get health benefits. So, it sounds like you were already doing 5K and plus the running/weight lifting. When you replaced running+weights with the additional 5K steps, you did not get any benefits but gave up an important workout. The original article also mentions the importance of 45 minutes of high-intensity exercise. Everything you say matches the results they found.

[brlewis]

OK, that doesn't actually sound like metabolic change to me. I think it's just that 3 days a week at gym, lifting and cardio/running burns more calories than the 5K walking steps you substituted for those activities. The default Fitbit goal was not for you...maybe a weekly exercise goal instead, which you can also do on Fitbit.

[erikb]

All of this sounds very unhealthy from a psychic point of view. If you do 5 things of sport every week and not know that you are way above average in what you are doing your vision is somehow blocked. And if you can't get away from charts now it actually really sounds like an addiction. Sport addiction is a thing.

Reading this you will think "what kind of BS is he talking about?" But let's say there is just a 1% chance I'm right. It would be worth talking to a doctor once, wouldn't it?

[newdaynewuser]

Thanks for your concern. But I am not sure where you got the idea that I said I was unhealthy. I just assumed that I can skip gym and get all the health benefits of it by taking 10K steps.

But yes as a geek I love data, and I really enjoy charts and numbers. And yes if I go to gym and find out I left my heart rate strap at home, then I might feel discouraged and not workout as hard. Perhaps I will make a habit of working out without HRM once a week.

As I tell my friends, only health device you really need is yourself.

[erikb]

You mean, when you read it you thought to yourself "what kind of BS is he talking about?" right?

[mikekchar]

I'm not the OP, but I read your post 3 times and I have no idea what you wanted to communicate. Sometimes it happens that you think you are being super clear and nobody else gets it. Please don't take offence.

[erikb]

True, happens.

[ThrustVectoring]

No, fitbits are probably just legitimately terrible. The value-of-information that they collect seems low, and the motivational distortion can be a gigantic liability. If what you actually care about doesn't involve having and taking care of a body, then no amount of game-playing is going to fix it. And playing games isn't how you focus your attention onto what you want and why you're doing things.

[ljk]

> Now I realize Fitbits are great for extremely unhealthy or lazy people. But those of us who been working out without any devices should stay away from any such devices. And not change your workout routines.

Definitely this. All these "gamification" of everyday activities are pretty gimmicky imo and I'm glad I've always stayed away from these toys

[tajen]

It's worse than this. I believe gamification increases one's dependency on dopamine.

... and I would bet that dopamine addiction makes you extremely unhealthy, because you chase the satisfaction through your day: One more series, one more 9gag/facebook/HN page, one more cookie. Society rewards mental strength a lot: If you are so strong that you can clear your life from unnecessary immediate satisfactions, you'll be filled with time with friends, you'll be more focussed at work, you'll dominate situations, you'll love yourself.

If this interpretation were to be correct, then gamified apps/gamified fitness/rewards on a screen are harming your mental strength, which harms your fitness.

[petegrif]

Why were you expecting to lose muscle mass?