[wfo]

Seattle has never been particularly welcoming to newcomers; people there tend to be insular and it can be hard to make friends if you don't already know people (even before the amazon/tech stuff -- plenty of articles about 'the seattle freeze' that predate it). Being from there helps. Not being in tech helps -- there are so many new software engineers meeting one just isn't very interesting. You can hardly blame people; if every single new person you meet is a software engineer you get real sick of hearing that real fast. You appear like you're a dime a dozen, because as a software engineer transplant in Seattle you are and to anyone not in tech your work is utterly boring; if you can, try talking about hobbies instead and avoiding talking about work entirely. That might help, but it's definitely an uphill battle in that city.

Also everyone hates amazon. So if you don't work there, be outwardly and explicitly proud that you don't -- that's a huge selling point when it comes to making friends. Partly because of the white collar sweatshops (people in seattle generally liberal and pro-labor), partly because of the blue-collar sweatshops, partly because 'large corporation = evil', partly because the countless new techbros with no respect for Seattle culture who spend 11hrs/day at work and don't have time to develop a personality romping around town give it a real bad reputation.

[thieving_magpie]

Yeah, I'm not all that concerned with making friends with people that are hostile about my profession. That's so petty.

>partly because the countless new techbros with no respect for Seattle culture who spend 11hrs/day at work and don't have time to develop a personality romping around town give it a real bad reputation

What does that even mean? I hear this all the time and I honestly have no idea how to "respect Seattle Culture". I'm nice to people and I enjoy everything Seattle has to offer. If you want a pat on the back for living in Seattle longer, sorry. I don't care.

I'd also point out that this hasn't been my experience at all. Everyone here has been very nice, welcoming, and helpful. I feel like Seattle natives really sell themselves short. It has been a great experience.

[JPKab]

As someone who has lived in a few cities filled with counter-culture types, they can be incredibly insular, superficial, and tribal. Ironically, they end up being a different looking, but similar acting version of the wealthy elite they claim to hate.

It seems like everyone in these places is just trying to re-invent a "cooler than thou" image, looking down on others who don't prize their typically temporary life-style choices. The gleeful embrace of self-imposed bohemian poverty, and the hatred of anyone who wants material possessions, is particularly annoying. As someone who grew up in poverty, I really hate getting lectured on how meaningless money is by a dread-locked trust fund kid who is waxing poetic about how great of an experience it is to "live simply." They don't seem to get the fact that for some of us, a "tiny house" is exactly what we fucking grew up in, except it wasn't considered cool, and was stuck next to a bunch of other tiny houses called trailers in a community called a trailer park.

The point is that the people in Seattle that act like assholes to you almost certainly fall into this category of idiot.

[hosh]

Well, sure, posturing is posturing, whatever posture you adopt.

That's not been my experience of Seattle though. But then again, I'm pretty unconventional myself.

There is a point to "living simply". That's not necessarily counter-culture. Some folks eschew materialism as a self-image thing. But some folks have already been on the extremes of material wealth, have already found that it wasn't what it was cracked up to be, and choosing to live simply comes from wisdom and experience.

I hope you're able to find out for yourself whether the material possessions actually makes you happy -- and that you do find happiness, whatever form that takes for you.

[icanhackit]

> counter-culture types, they can be incredibly insular, superficial, and tribal

This applies to all types of people, rich, poor, conservative, progressive and the stuff in between. On a meta-scale it would be the way a country might react to immigrants, and like a self-similar fractal the sentiment works at smaller and smaller scales like seaboard, North/South, state, county, town etc. I guess the underlying mentality is, hey we made this area for people like us, not people like you. Now you're ruining it by changing what it is...

Using the counter-culture area as an example, if large numbers of people move to an edgy place shaped by artists, musicians, bums, gender/sexual aberrations and people who generally reject what other areas have to offer, and they don't want to be part of the existing social fabric then they're treated in a way analogous to how an immune system would antagonize a foreign body. It could just as easily be old money getting shitty with new money flooding their uppity neighborhood with unacceptable values or garish sensibilities.

IOW: people generally don't like change. Especially if it's not in their favor or to their taste.

> looking down on others who don't prize their typically temporary life-style choices

It's easy to judge groups of people with generalizations - they're doing the same to you. The funny thing is most people would get along fine if they put that kind of mentality away and just spoke to each other with a common respect.

[itsybitsycoder]

I grew up in a trailer park too, and look forward to the day I can afford to go back to a life that simple.

[devindotcom]

I'm glad you're having a good time, but people in central Seattle are sensitive to the fact that the neighborhood that has been a cradle for so much culture is being made into the party district for nearby corporate villages - Amazon being the biggest offender. I have plenty of friends who've worked there (though many leave because it's so horrible) and plenty of friends in tech. It's not the profession, it's the people - they're easy to spot in real life. We don't want your approval - we're the ones who don't care. We want to know you're on the same side of the culture battle we've been losing for the last 5 or 10 years.

[thieving_magpie]

Well I'm new to the city and I'd feel like it would be plainly disingenuous of me to pretend I know what's going on. I'm here to support my family, learn, and experience this incredible area. I'm aware of the arguments in the culture battle and I am, of course, against gentrification and the loss of cultural identity. I will vote accordingly to try and fight that. However, I have a similar attitude as you (and the 'we' you're referring to) - I don't want or need your approval.

And it bears repeating, I haven't experienced any of this at all. I have only encountered nice people.

[devindotcom]

Yes indeed, and sorry if my comment sounded confrontational. I only meant that the "doesn't need approval" is an integral part of the Seattle mindset.

[thieving_magpie]

I didn't take it as a confrontation. I know exactly what you mean and I admire that quality.

[wfo]

When you move to a new place, that place has a culture. If you want locals to like or accept you, you should try to at the very least understand if not adopt part of that culture. It works the same everywhere. In a small town it's much more pressing and obvious -- watch how fast you get ostracized when you dump on their culture; in a big city you can kind of get away with doing your own thing and ignoring most of the people/culture/tradition if you want.

People in Seattle have worked very hard for years to build a community and a culture that they enjoy and on the whole represents them and is different from any other city in the country. That hard work is one of the biggest reasons people consider Seattle such a great place to live. Dumping a million rich young people who are there to work themselves to death at amazon for a year before they jump ship and work at a real company somewhere else into the middle of it isn't particularly good for that community or culture.

If you don't know what respecting the culture of a place means then I don't really know what to tell you. If you "hear it all the time" that means people are saying it all the time and it means something; I'd try to understand what they mean rather than being hostile to the idea.

[thieving_magpie]

I meant "read it all the time", as I only see this on the internet.

Fairly sure I'm fitting in just fine. As I said, I don't have a bad word to say about anyone I've met. Apparently asking you what "respect the culture" means gets me a negative response where you berate for me not already know what it means and telling me I should "try to understand".

So asking you directly isn't good enough. I think I'll just pass, I'm doing fine and Seattle has been nothing but kind. But good luck with your approach, I'm sure making someone feel bad for moving to a new place works on someone.

[pera]

I keep reading all these scary stories about how unwelcoming people from Seattle is; I moved here back in February and my experience until now have been completely the opposite: almost every Seattleite I meet is super friendly and talkative, at the point that it feels almost like being in a small town.

Maybe I am just lucky? but I think Seattle is one of the coolest cities in the US, except of course for the traffic.

[baconner]

My experience was the same as yours. Frankly I've never lived anywhere where I felt like I made more beyond the surface connections with people than the Seattle area. I never experienced any hostility for being in the software industry, nor any for being an outsider not from the pnw. IMO Seattle has something that I've missed since leaving quite a lot - a high % of thoughtful, intelligent, down to earth people.

[steve-howard]

I think it depends greatly on your personality, how you spend your free time, what part of the city you're in, and how your first few experiences shapes you perception.

I find Seattle to be unwelcoming, personally, but it's not that people aren't friendly when you can get them to talk. It's the pervasive avoidance of eye contact and general desire not to engage with strangers that can make it a lonely place.

[pera]

I had only lived in big cities before (Buenos Aires and NYC) where is very unusual to have any kind of interaction with strangers. In my experience here people starts conversations all the time in almost any public space (grocery stores, parks, buses, etc.) and I have to say that I'm not used to that haha but I really enjoy it. I wonder if this is a neighborhood thing maybe?

[dynomight]

Yes. I grew up in Seattle and people rarely make eye contact. It's terrible. It wasn't until I visited other areas that I realized that it wasn't just me.

People here do want to be forced out of their shell though. If you don't require the slightest bit of affirmation in your personality, you'll do fine in Seattle. If not you'll most certainly get the blues. I do fine on some days and then sometimes it's just a chore.

[seanmcdirmid]

Sounds like Finland/Scandinavia. Well, they were the ones to supposedly settle Ballard, I guess.

[hosh]

I dunno, Pera. That's been my experience of Seattle too.

I mean, sure, I remembered the street protests that lead to the minimum wage laws; and people getting angry about one thing or another. But by and large, I don't get the cold shoulder or hostile looks.

Maybe it is because people in Seattle are sensitive to being judged, and are aggressive about political correctness? I'm OK with that.

Seattle is a beautiful city. I'm glad I had the chance to live there :-)

[hiou]

It very much depends on if you fit the Seattle type. The reality is that Seattle and the Northwest in general is very hostile to people who are different from the norm there. If you happen to line up with that it's a great place to be. If not it can be uncomfortable.

[city41]

Having a giant lake dividing Seattle from the rest of the area has a really negative impact on traffic.

I lived in Seattle for 4 years and I generally found people cold and distant, my wife did too.

[hosh]

That might be part of it too. I worked from home. I lived in Capitol Hill, parked my car in the garage, and I think I drove it maybe once the entire year I lived there. I walked everywhere. Folks were pretty friendly.

[eonw]

would you say your experience with seattleites was limited due to your staying in a small pocket of the city?

[hosh]

Well, that's turn that around: how would not staying in a small pocket of the city expose me other types of Seattleites?

Or better yet: How would typecasting what Seattle folks are like give me insight into myself, or into the city, or improve my life?

[mikestew]

After fifteen years of living here, I've concluded that a large part of the traffic woes are brought on by the general driving habits of the residents themselves. Can't properly merge (speed up to the flow of traffic, please), can't stay out of the left lane, and huge gaps are often left because a driver can't be bothered to push the accelerator (exacerbating the jerky stop-and-go). Seattle doesn't need more roads, Seattle needs to learn to operate their vehicles (though Seattlites will tell you it's the immigrant Californians; talk about denial). Contrast to, say, NYC where it appears to me that everybody just wants it to work and if you're screwing it up for everyone else you get a horn and a finger. Which, despite stereotypes, doesn't seem to happen all that often (disclaimer: never lived there, visited lots) because everyone else wants it to work, too.

That, and they should have said "yes" to federal light rail dollars forty years ago. Now we're stuck with a tunnel that I'm becoming increasing convinced is never going to get finished.

[hockeybias]

The traffic. Ugh. ...I remember, even twenty years ago, having to slog along under 40 mph from SeaTac to Seattle on a Saturday - early in the afternoon.

[seanmcdirmid]

I visit Seattle often and find the traffic to be wonderful! Of course, I live in Beijing, so my perspective is a bit unusual.

[JesperRavn]

>countless new techbros with no respect for Seattle culture who spend 11hrs/day at work and don't have time to develop a personality romping around town give it a real bad reputation.

I think you do a great job summarizing the hypocrisy of the left on this issue. According to the left, if a person is financially disadvantaged, they deserve sympathy and support. However if a person is socially disadvantaged[0], they not only deserve it, but also should be shamed for taking up space that more interesting people could be occupying.

[0] I don't believe for a second that there are many people working 11 hours a day. The people you describe are simply more introverted/shy people who work in tech, and you're looking for some explanation that makes their social situation their own fault.

[wfo]

So apparently having a life outside of work is now a left-wing political issue? All the conservatives I know and spend time with have hobbies too.

What does socially disadvantaged even mean? Autism spectrum disorder? Having nothing interesting to say? Having no interests or ability to socially interact?

And obviously I'm not referring to shy introverts when I describe these people as "techbros" "romping around town".

And it's Amazon. 11 hours is an underestimate.

[jaziek]

>I don't believe for a second that there are many people working 11 hours a day.

Clearly haven't been following much of the news on Amazon as a workplace recently then.

11 hours a day is totally believable.

[alttab]

I'm a Seattle transplant from the east coast and I work for a big scary tech company and I haven't had any of these problems. The main difference between east and west coast culture is on the east coast the biggest opener is "so what do you do?" which in west coast culture translates to "i don't care who you are."

Which is why getting and talking about hobbies is a better choice. Who is most likely to screw this up? East coast or mid-western kids coming to work at Microsoft and Amazon.

A better opener for new-comers to Seattle is: "So what is your favorite brunch place?" or "what do you like to do on the weekends? I like going to Bainbridge", etc.

What you do matters way, way less initially.

[aaronbrethorst]

Have you ever tried traveling anywhere around South Lake Union at the end of a work day? It's an absolute nightmare, and doesn't do anything to ingratiate Amazon to the rest of the city.

[rconti]

Was there ever a reason to travel around South Lake Union at the end of a work day before? Other than to exit 99 for the Mercer Street industrial wasteland pothole-dodge on the way to I-5, of course.

[aaronbrethorst]

Queen Anne <-> Capitol Hill

Glazer's Camera

Downtown to Eastlake

yeah.

[hosh]

When I lived in Seattle, I walk and sometimes take the bus. Queen Anne's is just a bit further than I am willing to walk. I miss the walking; where I'm living now, things are far apart enough that it's more practical to ride a bike if I didn't want to drive.

[zardo]

Downtown to Eastlake

Head up to the REI and hang a left, you can bypass the cluster fuck of SLU traffic.

[hosh]

Huh, that explains some things. I never really noticed it. I had a few friends I already knew in Seattle that were very welcoming. On the other hand, when I'm out walking and wandering around by myself, I don't get a sense a hostile or coldness to people. If anything, I felt that I fit in better in Seattle than when I lived in Atlanta. I've met a lot of interesting people from different walks of life -- artists, yes, and engineers, and street folks. Some hipsters, some hippies, some yuppies. I really enjoyed the diversity.

I was wondering why Seattle did not have as vibrant of a tech meetup community as Atlanta. I chalked it up to that, in Atlanta, everyone has to drive to get to the meetup. But now I see, it might be something else.

I'm not sure about bonding and making friendships with people with mutual dislike for one company or another. It's in my experience, those affiliations makes for good acquaintances. But friends? A friend is someone who, if I knocked on their door at 3AM and said I need help, they might be cranky, but they'll let me in. A friend is someone who, if I get a call from them saying they need me to bail them out of jail, I'd do it.

People who are proud of hating Amazon, or upset that I am neutral about it -- I think I will just walk away. That's one of the shadow sides I notice, living in Capitol Hill back in year of 2013: people are aggressively politically-correct, many are passionate about liberal stance, or being tolerant of people. It's a big contrast from living in Atlanta.

[jonwayne]

I moved to Seattle from Atlanta 8 months ago and I haven't managed to make any friends. This place is rough.

[sbilstein]

I moved to Seattle in 2011 and left in 2013. It was a little difficult to make friends at first because (1) people are generally standoffish and (2) the whole 'I work at Microsoft' thing really turns people off for whatever reason.

What I learned after a while was you can't really do anything about #1; thats just the NW culture. To deal with #2...just don't bring it up and don't be a stereotype and get to know Seattle and all it's good for. Music, mountains, etc. I loved living there the second year I was there.

I find the Bay Area is so inundated with tech it's almost impossible to encounter #1 or #2...almost anyone you meet socially if you live in SF will work for tech in some way or another which was not guaranteed at all in Seattle (also true of Oakland but not quite the same). People are friendlier in the Bay but that's got no bearing on you actually being friends with them.

[umanwizard]

So the solution to #2 is to be "one of the good ones"? To not talk about important facets of yourself to avoid offending petty people? Fuck that.

[mjevans]

You're missing the point.

The answer to number 2 is to be more than your job. To leave work /at work/.

[umanwizard]

I'm "more than my work". But that doesn't mean my work isn't a major part of me.

[wfo]

Your bathroom habits are a major part of you too, but that doesn't mean you bring them up in normal polite conversation. People aren't interested in hearing about your work (especially if it's in tech and they are not) just like they aren't interested in many details of your life which are very important to you. Your goal in social interaction should be to find common ground, not force people to want to talk about what you want to talk about.

[mosdave]

> and avoiding talking about work entirely

fuck, is this not SOP for everyone?

conversation order of operations: work < people < things < ideas

[hsod]

Not for me. Work is interesting. Attempting to build some dogmatic hierarchy of which things are OK to talk about is silly.

[Zach_the_Lizard]

Here in the DC metro area, pretty much the first question you get upon meeting someone is: "So, what do you do?"

Unfortunately, it's not SOP everywhere.

[marssaxman]

I've never understood the problem with that question. It's been a normal thing to talk about everywhere I've ever been. Work is a defining feature of one's life, the single activity people spend more time on than any other; what's wrong with asking about it when you want to get to know someone?

[Zach_the_Lizard]

Your job can imply your socioeconomic status. When it's the first thing you ask, it can come across as deciding whether you're worthwhile or not. Maybe you're not worth the connection because you're a fry cook at McDonalds, but the doctor over there in the corner is.

Learning what someone does for a living is, to me anyways, far less important than learning what they like to do, what interests they have, etc. I can be friends with anyone where there's common ground, not just fellow software folks.

Talking with work is fine, it just can be interpreted as rude if it's one of the first things you ask.

[mahyarm]

I think the difference is if you like your job or not. If you don't, then you don't like talking about work and you act like it's rude. If work is your passion, then you do like talking about it.

[marssaxman]

I realize that it can be interpreted as rude, I just don't understand why. It's not a question about socioeconomic status, it's a question about "what [you] like to do, what interests [you] have, etc.," as those characteristics are expressed in the activity you've chosen to spend at least half your waking hours on.

[mac01021]

A large fraction of people in the "developed" world (perhaps a majority?) work as something like a cashier, for an employer they don't really care about. And they are all aware that most other people they meet are working similar jobs. So they don't ask, because they know they'll probably get a reply like "I stock shelves in a department store", which isn't going to lead anywhere interesting.

Because of this, if someone does ask them what they do, they can be pretty sure right away that that person does something "better" than what they do, and (wrongly or rightly) it can make the situation uncomfortable for them.

Obviously the extent to which this is relevant depends on the demographic of the group in which you're socializing at a particular moment.

[eropple]

You're replying to someone who explained to you that that question is, in many quarters, a question about socioeconomic status, and your reply is "I don't understand why it's rude, it's not a question about socioeconomic status." Yes, it is about socioeconomic status. You may not think it should be, you may not like that it is, but it is, otherwise people would not take it as such. The reasons are historical and cultural, and if you study the (American, though not exclusively) relationship between work and sociological sense of self of the 20th century you are surely more than capable of divining the details, but it exists, and your further confusion about rudeness will probably continue until you accept that the measuring tools of rudeness are not yours to calibrate.

[eastbayjake]

The #1 dating horror story among women I've dated in SF is the introverted engineer who could only talk about work, engineering, or video games and otherwise required Charlie Rose levels of questioning to engage on other topics. I'm wondering if I can get funding for a Personality-as-a-Service startup in SF.

[PhasmaFelis]

I wonder how many of those engineers have horror stories about women who can only talk about <insert bland, socially approved topic here> and refuse to discuss anything interesting, like engineering or video games.

[itsybitsycoder]

Are you saying that all women want to talk about is bland socially-approved topics, or that everything other than engineering and video games is bland and socially-approved? I like talking about work and videogames sometimes but if that's all you can talk about without getting bored, it's pretty bad.

[mjevans]

I read this the other way. That the post you're replying to here was saying 'flip the table around and try to read the experience from the other side'. Are the engineers really flat and without life, or is it that the venn diagram of their mutual interests has a very small overlap and neither is particularly good at figuring out how to engage the other?

[PhasmaFelis]

I meant more what mjevans said. Sometimes two people just don't have anything in common, and that's too bad, but too often blame is placed 100% on the nerdy guy for having the "wrong" interests, when really it's nobody's fault.

Remember a while back when someone wrote an entire awful clickbait article about the horror of discovering that the guy she was on a date with played Magic: The Gathering? Not that he was unpleasantly obsessed with it, not that he couldn't talk about anything else, just that he was a frequent player.

[eastbayjake]

To clarify, an important part of these date horror stories is literally "I could not get him to talk." Like long, awkward pauses until his interlocutor asks him about work/engineering. The problem is not "having the wrong interests", it's not being able to communicate your interests to female humans unless presented with a direct question that can be answered with a factual response, like "What do you do at [Company]?"

[rayiner]

It's crazy how insular Seattle is. My wife--whose family came to Oregon on the wagon trains--once interviewed at a law firm in Seattle. They asked her: "so I see you have ties to the PNW, but what are your ties to Western Washington?"

[webwright]

This is so strange to hear. I moved here in 2006 and made friends without any unusual effort. The idea that someone is going to be non-interested in talking to you because of your profession is... strange.

No one here that I've ever met hates Amazon (though some are bummed by the economic effect on the city). I've never worked there, but I have friends who have-- some of them didn't like it (and left), others really love it. Like any big company, depends on your team and your boss.

[bluedino]

>> Also everyone hates amazon.

Odd, compared to Bentonville where everyone loves Wal-mart.

[JPKab]

To be fair, Amazon doesn't directly or indirectly employ half the population of Seattle like Walmart does in northwest Arkansas.

Plus, it's apples and oranges. Seattle attracts counter-culture folks, and has for a long time. They tend to be assholes in general in my opinion.

[hosh]

That's an interesting use of the word "asshole".

There is this philosopher who picked apart the word "asshole" to try gain insight into what it means. I liked his definition of it -- someone acting out of entitled superiority.

There are lots of folks who are like that. I don't generally distinguish people along the lines of "mainstream" and "counter-culture" in my head. It's more of whether someone is superficial, or someone is impeccable or has integrity. So sure, I've met asshole counter-culture "types". I've also met some very interesting people too.

Have you read that article about the philosophy of jerks?

[cossatot]

Plenty of people in NW Arkansas, particularly Fayetteville and Eureka Springs, aren't huge Walmart/Tyson/JB Hunt fans.