[tthayer]

Agreed. The 2015 Mazda3 we just bought has a horrible info/nav system that crashes and frequently stops responding. I'm guessing the actual chance of it ever being fixed at 0%. Tesla's get an automatic OTA update that would fix that kind of thing and it wouldn't be something you'd have to 'deal' with for the rest of your ownership of the vehicle.

[coldpie]

I will never buy a vehicle with both an infotainment system and a steering wheel. Subaru lost a sale of a brand new car when the dealer sat down, turned the key, and the radio showed.... a loading bar.

Fuck that. I deal with shitty software enough everywhere else in my life. I'm not going to put up with that in a 4000lb piece of metal going 70 MPH.

[jakemoshenko]

Here I am trying to imagine a vehicle with infotainment but without a steering wheel. It raises so many questions!

Do you assume that we will purchase self driving cars frequently enough that the infotainment will keep pace? Do you anticipate purchasing a personal train or fighter jet? Do the handlebars on a motorcycle count as a steering wheel?

[oaktowner]

I'm pretty sure he means that he doesn't want anything that has both an infotainment system and a steering wheel...in other words, he doesn't want an entertainment system in a car.

[baddox]

I thought he meant that he doesn't want an infotainment system in his car until we have self-driving cars.

[cam-]

Can't wait until self driving cars become the norm; I don't need a drive way, a garage and the suburb I can live in can have smaller roads with the space for cars given over to walking paths and bicycles. Maybe in 2050.

[coldpie]

This is precisely what I meant, yes :)

[waterlesscloud]

I'm trying to imagine a personal car without a steering wheel without an infotainment system.

Of course such vehicles will have infotainment. I've long been thinking about what sort of content would work best. Short, serialized content released on a weekday schedule would certainly be an opportunity. Perfect watercooler fodder.

[Someone]

Ads, of course, for some definition of 'works best' (extreme variant: self-driving car offers to pick up what you order while you are at work) If I were an employer, I might pay my personnel to have the infotainment part replaced by educational material on their way to work.

[grkvlt]

Nice idea...

As an employee you could get the ride in the car free, as a perk, iff you watch the educational material and pass a test on it. This would be assessed during the ride via onscreen multiple-choice questions; get less than 50% correct (or, turn it off) and you have to pay for the journey!

[eric_h]

The crap they show in the back of NYC taxis does seem to fit the bill (short 2-3 min videos, changes fairly regularly, though heavily mixed with advertisements). It is crap, but I imagine once there are driverless cars, the format will gather interest from more creative sources.

[seanp2k2]

Why use it for creative purposes when you can use it to show ads? Talk about a captive audience. I'm betting that Google is going so big into driverless cars so they can show you ads on the windshield once it's proven + accepted as safer than human drivers. It might take 20 years, but they're opening up a new advertising channel.

[crshults]

I always thought it would be cool to play an on-rails first person shooter where the "rails" matched the road you were travelling at the time.

[Retric]

People used to buy aftermarket stereos fairly frequently and I don’t see any reason why the infotainment system can’t have that kind up upgradeability. Worst case strap an iPad over the old system.

PS: I can see the argument for a highly limited system when they can distract the driver, but if I am effectively a passenger that's a non-issue.

[eric_h]

I'm infuriated by the systems that are totally locked down when the car is in motion, even when the car _knows_ that there is a person in the passenger seat (it yells until I put on my seatbelt).

If I'm the passenger, I should be able to tinker with the infotainment system as I like, without restriction (especially when my dad is the driver and I want to enable bluetooth audio to play music from my phone - my dad drives a newish Outback, great car from a driving perspective, crappy from the infotainment system perspective).

[arprocter]

I'm not a fan of screens simply because operating a button or a knob uses less of my attention

[Retric]

I agree with you right now, but is that still an issue for self-driving cars? Ideally I want to get in, say drive to work, and then take a nap. If I still need to pay attention then it's not really a self-driving car just an upgraded form of cruise control.

[Too]

iPads are not very friendly to your face in the event of a crash. Apple devices are also famous for not wistanding heat or cold. Real automotive equipment is rigorously tested for these scenarios and many more.

[marincounty]

I'm all for new technology on automobiles, but made the software open source? In order to work on these computers on wheels, mechanics need access to trouble codes, and information on this new technology. They aren't giving it up to independent repair shops. We are being forced to bring our ailing computers to Dealerships, at dealership prices?

I know a dealership mechanic and he told me even with the proprietary scan tool, and access to the companies database; he spends hours a week learning every new upgrade, and feature these newer cars/trucks are implementing. He said it's usually on the customer's dime.

We need to standardize, and I believe, even mandate that if a person buys a automobile; they will have access to all the repair information for that particular vechicle.

I foresee a junk yards getting bigger, and bigger, with cars that no one car work on, or worse--just crushing the vechicle when that transmission with 10 sensors, and two computers fails?

A note to mechanics; I know the amount of ongoing learning you gave to do in order to keep your job. I know your employer expects you to learn this new technology on your time. If these vechicles keep going in the direction I think we are already at(too complicated, and car companies refusing to release data), it might me a the right time to unionize in certain counties? With unionization you could afford Lobbiests, and in the end you would be paid what you are worth, with retirement benefits? With paid training on all these propiatiary systems? (I think the San Francisco Bay Area could pull off a union takeover?)

Basically, when I buy a car--I don't want to be forced to bring it to a dealership in order to repair! I gave a family member who has a 1996 Dodge Dakota. After years of working on it, I can repair the vechicle, but I spent a lot of time learning how to flash the computer, and only got the software because I have a buddy at a dealership. I told him, if he buys a new vechicle--I probally won't be able to repair it for free. I told him to drive it until it blows up. We are not a wealthy family.

[ctdonath]

Has long irritated me that car audio systems have a discernible boot time, having come from the days of instant-on radios. There really is no excuse, between optimizing the boot process and starting it the moment the car starts (not like there's that much of a draw, speakers off, from the alternator).

[nivla]

Even worse is when the backup camera is linked to the entertainment system. You start the car, put it into reverse and then have to wait for the system to come on. It sucks especially in a parking lot where you have to pay extra attention to cars creeping up when you are trying to get out.

[bodyfour]

Even better, there's already a sensor to let it know the driver's side door has been opened.. that should give it a head start.

[henrikschroder]

The less shitty car makes use this to start the infotainment system early, BMW and Mercedes comes to mind.

But the overall state of infotainment systems is laughably bad, there's a few that are merely ok, most are bad, and some are rage-inducing. (Hello Cadillac!)

[greglindahl]

Indeed, opening the door is what wakes up the Tesla infotainment system.

[nightski]

That is strange, part of why I love the Outback I own is because it's dashboard is so simple and lacks fluff. Must of been a heavily upgraded model or something.

[tthayer]

Don't get me wrong, it isn't enough to make me hate the rest of the car. It drives great. About the only thing I use the infotainment system for is the neat fuel consumption statistics screen.

[j-b]

So, did you end up buying a different vehicle? If so, which one?

[semi-extrinsic]

With the OP's requirements I'd recommend a '94 Volvo 240 Turbo. (If we ever need a second car I'm getting one; my first car was one). New enough to be safe (airbags etc), some tinkering will get you 300 bhp, it's rear-wheel drive and has a perfect 50-50 weight distribution if you move the battery to the trunk (standard rally trick).

Stereo still has a cassette player, so a $5 adapter lets you plug in your phone for music. There's not a touch control in sight, the ergonomics are well thought through, and it even has a crude form of dual zone AC. Sure, it's more expensive in gas money, but when you factor in the reduced depreciation that's peanuts.

[kw71]

What a terrible car, especially the "1994 model" which is laughably just the 1974 car as if it were from some Soviet manufacturing line that just wouldn't go away. If you think bolting an airbag into a 1974 car body makes it safe, I'm sure the NCAP people want to talk to you.

I own a 960, Volvo won't sell parts for it anymore. Two generations and 20-years after your suggested car was designed I find mine has no thought given to ergonomics. Row of switches on the flat dash, behind the steering wheel where you can't see them... yeah.

[semi-extrinsic]

That the 240 was the same car for 20 years is an absurd claim. It's well known that the NHTSA bought and tore apart multiple 240s when they were updating the US auto safety standards in the 80s. It's also well known that Volvo has one of the most thorough and well-funded safety R&D departments in the world. The 1993 240 received five stars in crash testing from the NHSTA [1].

As for your 960: I can't comment on the ergonomics, never having been in one, but I know for sure that you can still get parts for it in Europe.

[1] http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/5-Star+Safety+Ratin...

[tthayer]

I regularly get 40+ MPG(US) on road trips in this little car. The info system being stupid is way overshadowed by how nice it is to drive, given the price. It's still a loud econobox with paper-thin sheet metal, but it drives a lot better than I expected.

[palimpsests]

Those cassette adapters for a 1/8" audio jack have awful sound quality, break frequently, and are usually around $20, not $5. You would be better off upgrading the stereo, unless you just want to play tapes or listen to the radio.

[justizin]

> Sure, it's more expensive in gas money, but when you factor in the reduced depreciation that's peanuts.

What a disappointing attitude to have toward fuel consumption in 2015. :/

[sokoloff]

What would you have him do with a functional but old car otherwise? Crushing a car that is functional and building a new modern car to replace it takes a little north of 125 Gigajoules of energy.

An older functional car may be better for the planet than destroying and replacing it.

[firethief]

Blame subsidized gas; not everyone can afford to act as if it were priced correctly.

[semi-extrinsic]

FYI, gas costs $7 per gallon where I live.

[jdmichal]

He should have just asked to see a model without the (assumed, but very likely) upgraded system. Cheaper, and excludes the terrible bits that will be outdated in 2-3 years anyway. My Audi has just the basic system (radio, satellite, aux-in, and Bluetooth) and it has no discernible boot time. Excludes the navigation, but my phone does that perfectly fine, and I get free map updates for it every couple months. (Windows Phone has offline mapping capabilities for a few gigabytes worth of storage space.)

[commandar]

I think we may see that option go away in the next couple of years thanks to the backup camera mandate (which goes into effect in 2018). Once automakers are putting the screen in the car anyway, basic head units are probably going to go away.

[Sindisil]

My RAV4 and my wife's Outback both have backup cameras, and the display is inset in the rear view mirror.

A much better system, IMHO, and doesn't mandate a nav system style screen.

[coldpie]

The base model for 2015 Subarus has the touchscreen, and there weren't any used for sale with a stick shift.

[coldpie]

My requirements were a hatchback with no touchscreens and a manual transmission. New or used. There were no Imprezas matching that available. I bought a 2011 Mazda 3 hatchback with a stick. The only one available in my area that day. They even had to drive it from a different dealership. Next on my shopping list would've been a Ford Focus, but the Mazda was available, so I didn't get that far.

[gonehome]

My friend has a Mazda3 and we hacked on it over the weekend to make the infotainment system a little bit better.

Check this out: http://www.mazda3hacks.com/doku.php

You can turn off the annoying restrictions, change the ordering of some menus and drastically reduce the time of the starting confirmation dialogue box. All you need is a USB to Ethernet adaptor.

Also make sure to disable watchdog or you can get into a reboot loop that makes it difficult to ssh back in and fix (we almost thought we'd have to bring it into the dealer, but we were able to get out of it with some script on that forum).

[fencepost]

My predecessor to the Mazda3 (Protege5) was my second Mazda and convinced me that it would likely be my last because over at least a 6 year period Mazda didn't manage to figure out "polish" in cars.

The P5 and predecessor Protege were fun to drive, worked OK, etc. but both were their high-end trimlines and my experiences with the two cars gave me the feeling that Mazda was prone to leaving out stupid really cheap stuff that would have drastically improved the feel/experience of the vehicles.

The examples that still jump out at me are:

* a front passenger door with no internal power lock switch - using the key on the outside you could lock/unlock everything, but from the inside passenger seat you had to lean over to hit the switch on the driver's door. Likely manufacturing cost savings? Maybe $5 including labor? I'd be surprised if the switch and wires would have cost more than $1 at car manufacturer volumes.

* trunk carpeting that was basically nylon felt placed on top of a smooth plastic spare tire cover - not attached anywhere, just sitting there where anything on it would just cause the whole piece of carpet to slide all over the trunk. My fix was 5 hook sides of wide adhesive-backed industrial Velcro. Worked for years with no problem, cost if done at the factory? Probably less than $0.50, but it might have cut into the options of selling aftermarket trunk liners so maybe it was intentional.

* cupholders that were not in fact deep enough to retain any cup, can or bottle commonly sold in US convenience stores during a turn. Make a sporty little car with a stiffened suspension, put in a 5-speed manual, then require that drivers going through curves at speed or turns without a full stop have to hold any beverages in the cupholders or have them go flying underfoot.

The cars themselves were fine for 100-135k miles each and there were workarounds I could put in place for everything, but stupid little crap like that still makes me feel like if they don't care enough to take cheap steps like that then what more expensive things are they skipping?

[NewtonSnoopin]

Hello. I've just ran into the problem of the reboot loop on my Mazda and have an appointment with the dealership on Tuesday. Could you specify how you fixed this issue yourself?

[daleswanson]

What watchdog do you mean? I've ssh'd into my Mazda3 and was planning on doing it again soon, but I don't know what you mean by that.

[gonehome]

Basically if you modify one of the configuration files and mess up the formatting it'll cause the infotainment software not to work.

If you don't disable watchdog then when it starts up and isn't working watchdog will have it automatically reboot. Since this isn't a transient issue, but a misconfigured file it'll just keep rebooting making it very difficult to ssh back in and fix the file.

If watchdog is disabled then while the infotainment system won't work it's easy to ssh back in and fix the file.

[tthayer]

Thanks for pointing me to that. I had no idea that stuff existed!

[gonehome]

No worries - if you have any questions about the hacks let me know.

[nhumrich]

I have had the mazda3 model since it first came out in 2014. They actually do release updates from time to time. The only unfortunate thing is you have to go to the dealer to update. (However the system is completely hackable, and you can update it yourself and even add your own apps http://www.mazda3hacks.com/) Mazda has said that in 2016 all cars with this infotainment system will get an upgrade to android auto/apple equivalent.

[nogridbag]

I wonder what's taking so long for automakers to adopt technologies like android auto. If I have to have an infotainment screen, I just want a dumb screen that I can dock a variety of different phones to.

[lentil]

It might get fixed. I just (last week) got a letter in the mail from Mazda saying there's a software update available for the info/nav in my Mazda3. Haven't had a chance to take it in yet to get the update applied, but I'm hoping that it will fix some of the issues I've seen.

Of course maybe your car is new enough that you already have that software version, in which case mine might be about to get worse... :)

[mackey]

I have been researching mazdas (CX-5) lately and they do get updates to the info/nav system. I think I read there is a crashing problem in v.51 or something, but its fixed in v.55. Not the same as tesla, but better than others.

[mikeash]

Are those updates over the air, or do you need to take it to a dealer to apply them?

[briHass]

They're done over USB. The system will look for specially named firmware files (*.up) and auto-apply.

This forum: http://mazda3revolution.com/forums/2014-mazda-3-skyactiv-aud... has some excellent info, and someone usually posts the new FW files. I've done an upgrade and the hacks myself.

[mikeash]

Nice. Not quite as convenient as Tesla, but it's great that they give you the ability to do it yourself.

[tthayer]

It looks like OTA updates will be available in the future, but who knows if 'older' models will get that feature.