[crimsonalucard]

This is a nonsensical response ignoring the intrinsic relationship between morality and the information given.

Since the situation is intrinsically related to morality. My advice is therefore also related to morality. Just because the OP doesn't specifically ask for a moral answer doesn't preclude me addressing morality.

Betrayal and ownership are subjective in this context. However, there is still a majority consensus that can be arrived at based on the information given. Many will come to a single conclusion on who is the betrayer and who morally deserves ownership. When a person thoughtlessly steals his best friends girlfriend, what do you think the majority consensus will be?

[mmxiii]

There are a few things getting conflated here.

1. What the OP should do.

2. What the majority consensus is

3. How you subjectively feel about the majority consensus.

4. How the OP subjectively feels about the majority consensus.

In this case, there was not sufficient information given to really understand what the majority consensus is. Additionally, just because something is the consensus, doesn't mean it is necessarily the best course of action individually. Facing condemnation is a consequence, not physical law. The initial response took no time to give an appropriate course of action, and drew on your subjective heated feelings attached to your interpretation of the consensus.

[crimsonalucard]

>In this case, there was not sufficient information given to really understand what the majority consensus is. Additionally, just because something is the consensus, doesn't mean it is necessarily the best course of action individually. Facing condemnation is a consequence, not physical law. The initial response took no time to give an appropriate course of action, and drew on your subjective heated feelings attached to your interpretation of the consensus.

There is no need to do a scientific analysis to derive majority consensus. Intuition is enough to know what the majority thinks about stealing your best friends girlfriend. Whether or not the majority consensus is the "best" course of action for the individual is not what I addressed. I specifically stated that my advice was from a moral standpoint, whether or not the OP considers that as "best" depends on whether or not he is a moral man.

The initial response gave a appropriate course of action from a moral standpoint. It drew from a combination of sources all of which can be potentially described as subjective, moral, rational, emotional, heated yet still valid.

[mmxiii]

It's fine to use intuition, but it's extremely important to be able to reflect and recognize on its shortcomings, which is that you may be inadvertently layering your own subjectivity on what you think is objective. In this case your outburst is not valid.

Is forcing yourself on another person immoral? Yes. Is intentionally manipulating someone's relationship for personal gain immoral? Yes. Are two people recognizing they would be happier together, and leaving a previous relationship immoral? That doesn't seem wrong.

You are the one coloring this scenario as "stealing". There is no information here about who these people are, what their relationships are like. You are projecting onto this situation and constructing this strawman, and in turn moralizing about the strawman. That isn't reality.

[crimsonalucard]

It's fine to use intuition, but it's extremely important to be able to reflect and recognize on its shortcomings, which is that you may be inadvertently layering your own subjectivity on what you think is objective. In this case your outburst is not valid.

All morality is subjective and thus so are my views. My views are still valid according to majority consensus DESPITE being subjective. Intuition has shortcomings but not when it comes to something obvious.

>Is forcing yourself on another person immoral? Yes. Is intentionally manipulating someone's relationship for personal gain immoral? Yes. Are two people recognizing they would be happier together, and leaving a previous relationship immoral? That doesn't seem wrong.

The last statement isn't immoral, while the first two are. However I am not addressing any of those things. What I am addressing is this: Allowing yourself to engage in a relationship with and/or develop feelings for your best friends, girlfriend. This is wrong under all counts.

>You are the one coloring this scenario as "stealing". There is no information here about who these people are, what their relationships are like. You are projecting onto this situation and constructing this strawman, and in turn moralizing about the strawman. That isn't reality.

Perhaps "stealing" is an inappropriate word as we are talking about things that are fundamentally impossible to steal. Betrayal is a better word and it is exactly the scenario the OP describes.

If we asked said betrayed founder whether or not he thinks it's betrayal. His answer will be yes. Then if we ask the majority for consensus. The answer will be yes, again.

[mmxiii]

The problem is that this is your subjective interpretation of what YOU think the consensus is. This is what you think other people think is wrong. Why should someone on this board believe that your conclusions about the consensus are accurate, reliable, or valid? No one is interested in sorting that out. In contrast, the best information to offer here is experience, AKA a data point. Fundamentally your input here is suboptimal.

It's also really clear that what the consensus may be here would vary a ton by the actual situation: 1. Was the original relationship happy? Would the consensus be against this if it were an abusive relationship? 2. Was it just a casual girlfriend, or were they engaged? 3. Was the OP intentionally trying to seduce the girl, or did it just happen that they recognized it was a better pairing?

The reality is the consensus WILL differ based on the situation. There are a ton of shades here, but you fixated on the idea of "betrayal", as if all things with this pattern were uniformly bad. That's clearly not true, and there is simply not enough data for you to overfit and then moralize.

[crimsonalucard]

This isn't a science experiment. People walk through life creating conclusions and moralizing based off of subjective intuition. There is not enough information here to formulate a scientific conclusion but there is enough information to form a reasonable one.

That being said... consensus will differ based on the situation, but based on the information given the consensus is roughly the same: Don't betray your best friend. There are very few contexts where having an affair with your best friends girlfriend will be justifiably moral. Let me address some of the examples you gave:

The nature and context of the relationship between the boyfriend and the girlfriend itself is irrelevant and NONE of the OPs business. Although an abusive relationship justifies intervention, an unhappy relationship DOES NOT JUSTIFY AN AFFAIR. Intuitively, it is also highly Unlikely that the relationship is abusive. Make no mistake, anytime you engage in an affair with your best friends girlfriend it is most likely an act of utter betrayal.

If the OP was not intentionally seducing the girl but developed feelings naturally, it is the OPs' own business. It's not his fault he developed those feelings but it will be his fault if he acts on those feelings. He is now torn between his attraction to this woman and his guilt for betraying his friend hence his decision to query people on hackernews. We all have dark desires, but the desire itself does not justify the action.

I fixate on the affair itself and how the act of carrying out said affair is an act of betrayal. The situation and context of the action is not uniformly immoral and I can definitely empathize with the OP. However, despite all of this... you are still an ass hole if you have an affair with your best friends girlfriend. Most people can agree with this, except you.

I can't speak for you but it may be possible that your empathy for his situation is clouding your judgement.

[DanBC]

> stealing your best friends girlfriend.

She's not property that belongs to someone.

She's presumably an adult who can make her own choices.

[crimsonalucard]

True. But take a look at the context of the english language and the situation. Usually when one uses the word "steal" in the context of "stealing a girlfriend" it usually is more inline with the meaning: "seduction/betrayal" then it is with the literal definition you are referring to which is "theft."

So lets make the logical leap here, which usage of the word "stealing" am I referring to? "Theft" or "seduction/betrayal"? What do you think? If it's too challenging to figure out I'll just tell you the answer: "Theft." I am literally suggesting that we call the police because a burglar has stolen another persons' girlfriend.

Also: adults are just kids with money.

[DanBC]

> If it's too challenging to figure out I'll just tell you the answer

I was pointing out your sexist attitudes and the mistakes that you make as a result of your ignorance. You think of her as an object to be traded, not as a person with violition. That caused your chauvanistic framing in your response.

[crimsonalucard]

Did you call me chauvinistic and sexist? That's an outright head to head insult. I am not, and using the word "stealing" does not make me such. Many woman use the the term "stealing boyfriend" it doesn't make them sexist. I refuse to continue this conversation due to the extreme unprofessional insults you are using.