[mmxiii]

It's fine to use intuition, but it's extremely important to be able to reflect and recognize on its shortcomings, which is that you may be inadvertently layering your own subjectivity on what you think is objective. In this case your outburst is not valid.

Is forcing yourself on another person immoral? Yes. Is intentionally manipulating someone's relationship for personal gain immoral? Yes. Are two people recognizing they would be happier together, and leaving a previous relationship immoral? That doesn't seem wrong.

You are the one coloring this scenario as "stealing". There is no information here about who these people are, what their relationships are like. You are projecting onto this situation and constructing this strawman, and in turn moralizing about the strawman. That isn't reality.

[crimsonalucard]

It's fine to use intuition, but it's extremely important to be able to reflect and recognize on its shortcomings, which is that you may be inadvertently layering your own subjectivity on what you think is objective. In this case your outburst is not valid.

All morality is subjective and thus so are my views. My views are still valid according to majority consensus DESPITE being subjective. Intuition has shortcomings but not when it comes to something obvious.

>Is forcing yourself on another person immoral? Yes. Is intentionally manipulating someone's relationship for personal gain immoral? Yes. Are two people recognizing they would be happier together, and leaving a previous relationship immoral? That doesn't seem wrong.

The last statement isn't immoral, while the first two are. However I am not addressing any of those things. What I am addressing is this: Allowing yourself to engage in a relationship with and/or develop feelings for your best friends, girlfriend. This is wrong under all counts.

>You are the one coloring this scenario as "stealing". There is no information here about who these people are, what their relationships are like. You are projecting onto this situation and constructing this strawman, and in turn moralizing about the strawman. That isn't reality.

Perhaps "stealing" is an inappropriate word as we are talking about things that are fundamentally impossible to steal. Betrayal is a better word and it is exactly the scenario the OP describes.

If we asked said betrayed founder whether or not he thinks it's betrayal. His answer will be yes. Then if we ask the majority for consensus. The answer will be yes, again.

[mmxiii]

The problem is that this is your subjective interpretation of what YOU think the consensus is. This is what you think other people think is wrong. Why should someone on this board believe that your conclusions about the consensus are accurate, reliable, or valid? No one is interested in sorting that out. In contrast, the best information to offer here is experience, AKA a data point. Fundamentally your input here is suboptimal.

It's also really clear that what the consensus may be here would vary a ton by the actual situation: 1. Was the original relationship happy? Would the consensus be against this if it were an abusive relationship? 2. Was it just a casual girlfriend, or were they engaged? 3. Was the OP intentionally trying to seduce the girl, or did it just happen that they recognized it was a better pairing?

The reality is the consensus WILL differ based on the situation. There are a ton of shades here, but you fixated on the idea of "betrayal", as if all things with this pattern were uniformly bad. That's clearly not true, and there is simply not enough data for you to overfit and then moralize.

[crimsonalucard]

This isn't a science experiment. People walk through life creating conclusions and moralizing based off of subjective intuition. There is not enough information here to formulate a scientific conclusion but there is enough information to form a reasonable one.

That being said... consensus will differ based on the situation, but based on the information given the consensus is roughly the same: Don't betray your best friend. There are very few contexts where having an affair with your best friends girlfriend will be justifiably moral. Let me address some of the examples you gave:

The nature and context of the relationship between the boyfriend and the girlfriend itself is irrelevant and NONE of the OPs business. Although an abusive relationship justifies intervention, an unhappy relationship DOES NOT JUSTIFY AN AFFAIR. Intuitively, it is also highly Unlikely that the relationship is abusive. Make no mistake, anytime you engage in an affair with your best friends girlfriend it is most likely an act of utter betrayal.

If the OP was not intentionally seducing the girl but developed feelings naturally, it is the OPs' own business. It's not his fault he developed those feelings but it will be his fault if he acts on those feelings. He is now torn between his attraction to this woman and his guilt for betraying his friend hence his decision to query people on hackernews. We all have dark desires, but the desire itself does not justify the action.

I fixate on the affair itself and how the act of carrying out said affair is an act of betrayal. The situation and context of the action is not uniformly immoral and I can definitely empathize with the OP. However, despite all of this... you are still an ass hole if you have an affair with your best friends girlfriend. Most people can agree with this, except you.

I can't speak for you but it may be possible that your empathy for his situation is clouding your judgement.

[mmxiii]

No, you certainly can't speak for me. I have no empathy or relevant experience regarding betrayal, I simply wanted to point out how your response was more irrational than rational.

You are right the majority consensus is betraying your buddy is bad. But do you see how without details, it's not possible to give actionable and helpful advice? You are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon. Maybe this advice isn't producing meaningful results? The fact is you don't know, because you don't have the relevant experience.

That's the first part of your advice. The second part is about deciding company ownership, and that's even more irrational, it doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship.

[crimsonalucard]

>But do you see how without details, it's not possible to give actionable and helpful advice?

You realize this entire thread is giving advice based off of the SAME details? How can it "not be possible" to give advice? Also I hope you realize that the OP is ASKING for advice?

>You are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon.

Take a look at the post rank. Hackernews lifts up posts based on how recent it is, then it orders by karma. I'm number 5 on this entire thread. Here you make an assumption based on lack of facts. The fact that I am number 5 is literally quantitative proof I have a huge consensus. If I have a consensus it means people do NOT agree that I am "parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice"

>The fact is you don't know, because you don't have the relevant experience.

You instruct me not to speak for you, which I CLEARLY did not. Yet you do the exact same thing here? This is a hypocritical statement. How DO YOU KNOW I don't have the relevant experience? You just pulled that fact out of thin air; and in doing so you are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon.

>That's the first part of your advice. The second part is about deciding company ownership, and that's even more irrational, it doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship.

The emotional aspects of the affair will bleed into the business situation, that's a given; it would be irrational to suggest it "doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship"

What your saying is like saying we can't put rapists in prison because the prison cell has nothing to do the with rape. If betraying your friend is a immoral, I am suggesting a moral punishment that will prevent further harm to the victim both from an emotional standpoint and financial. If the OP doesn't take my advice he would be harming his friend EVEN further by causing the team-up to become toxic or muscling his friend out. I am suggesting the most moral, least damaging option, which is utterly and completely rational.

[mmxiii]

Anyone can post any "advice' here. I explicitly stated that the class of advice you gave is not actionable or helpful. Not only is #5 not a particularly strong position, but the point I'm making is that statements that people have consensus about don't necessarily make advice that creates effective results.

You are so tunneled into the idea that betrayal is bad, that you are missing how the business is an entirely different entity. There are employees, customers, and investors all potentially affected by this outcome. In the case of a breakup, there is potentially a greater moral obligation to create the best result for the other parties, than just fixate on the betrayal of the victim.

Not to mention your idea of this requiring moral punishment is not something that would draw consensus on HN, or in general. That is your fantasy, not reality.