[MetaCosm]

I agree. Also, maybe Rust-the-community isn't ready to honor promises (http://blog.rust-lang.org/2014/10/30/Stability.html) it makes, which is critical for enterprise adoption.

Twenty-two days after release, Rust started talking about making breaking changes (https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/pre-rfc-adjust-default-obj...). This conversation killed a Rust project I had pushed for... it played into all the existing negative ideas about Rust (constantly changing, not worth investing in) and gave the doubters all the ammo they needed to kill the project.

The change wasn't yet implemented, and had ZERO impact on our code-base even if implemented. But Rust-the-community seems too clueless on the importance of APPEARING stable and able to follow promises.

I wonder how many other Rust projects died because Rust-the-community appears like an untrustworthy ally (I am speaking of perception not reality).

[pcwalton]

The promise was "we won't break your code". The conversation was to determine the answer to the question "is there any code out there that this will break", because we take that compatibility promise seriously and want to honor it. If you're unhappy that we're having that discussion, well, I'm sorry, but we need to have these kinds of discussions if the compatibility promise is going to mean anything. The alternative would be to make these sorts of changes without discussion (or to stop making any kinds of changes that could break code at all, which rules out too many benign improvements; see below).

It's untenable to guarantee that, in a strict sense, the universe of all possible programs that run on 1.0 will always have the exact same behavior on 1.1. With any language, there are plenty of ways to break code in theory on upgrades that are very unlikely to lead to problems in practice; as an obvious example, incorrect unsafe code that depends on undefined behavior can break when the compiler starts optimizing based on that undefined behavior. I think that, instead, what we can realistically guarantee is that code that actually compiles in 1.0 compiles in 1.1. If there's no code out there that actually breaks, then I don't see any problem.

Golang has made many changes that could technically, and actually did, break code as well (just to name a recent example, the GOMAXPROCS default bump; there have been several others).

[MetaCosm]

> If there's no code out there that actually breaks, then I don't see the problem.

Exactly, which was my point. Rust-the-community (and you as a member of it) see no problem with it... which for me, IS the problem. The timing, the fact that it played into all the existing narratives about why you never trust Rust, it made it a brutal bit of political weaponry in the hands of those who are pushing against Rust in organizations... and a bit of a kick in the junk to those of us who supported it. You saw it as without impact, when it has already had a huge impact on at least one organization.

> Golang has made many changes that could technically, and actually did, break code as well (just to name a recent example, the GOMAXPROCS default bump; there have been several others).

Rust isn't Go, that might seem "unfair" but that is the way it is. Go does not have the same reputation to fight against as Rust, the same famed history of breaking peoples code who are trying to use it, Rust WILL be held to a higher standard when it comes to breakage than ANY other language I suspect.

[pcwalton]

> Rust-the-community (and you as a member of it) see no problem with it... which for me, IS the problem. The timing, the fact that it played into all the existing narratives about why you never trust Rust, it made it a brutal bit of political weaponry in the hands of those who are pushing against Rust in organizations... and a bit of a kick in the junk to those of us who supported it.

Tell me what you wanted Rust to do instead. Again, the options seem to me to be either "make potentially-breaking changes silently without gathering feedback" or "make no changes to Rust that could break any code ever". If the latter, realize that this implies we could never add functions to modules (because of glob imports and shadowing), we could never add modules, we could never add trait implementations (because of method resolution), we could never add to the prelude, we could never upgrade LLVM (because of undefined behavior), and probably a whole host of other things I'm forgetting.

> Go does not have the same reputation to fight against as Rust, the same famed history of breaking peoples code who are trying to use it, Rust WILL be held to a higher standard when it comes to breakage than ANY other language I suspect.

I'm not sorry for doing so much development in the open instead of behind closed doors, even if everyone got to see how much the language changed from 0.1 to 1.0 and it acquired a reputation of "changes all the time". The point is, it doesn't change all the time now. From 0.6 to 0.7, for example, all code everywhere broke. Same with 0.7 to 0.8, 0.8 to 0.9, and 0.9 to 0.10 (though the amount of breakage got less over time, as you would expect). Conversely, the amount of breakage between 1.0 and 1.2 (assuming the trait lifetime change goes through) is so minuscule we don't even know of a single crate anywhere in existence that it would break. This is, in my view, so different as to be incomparable.

[MetaCosm]

> Tell me what you wanted Rust to do instead...

Well -- if we are going into what I would have preferred. I would have preferred a rest period after release. No ongoing changes across 3 trains on a 6 week cycle. Give the community time to accept, adapt, bitch, moan, whine, create workarounds, and then better workarounds. Let enterprises have time to buy in, test, accept or reject and give feedback. Deal with critical issues and focus on stability as a deliverable... and don't break anything during the rest period (even if that means being on a single version of LLVM and no new traits or modules or functions or whatever). But, that ship has sailed.

> I'm not sorry for doing so much development in the open instead of behind closed doors

Who asked you to be? I was simply pointing out the reality that Rust has a reputation to contend with -- you can't change that be being righteous about it, it just is.

[kibwen]

You appear to have an expectation that the 1.0 release itself is an LTS release. I'm not sure where that expectation came from, but it is not correct. 1.0 is just the foundation for the language's stable evolution, and I don't expect any Rust code to linger on 1.0 in lieu of upgrading to 1.1.

The arrival of the 1.0 release also doesn't imply that the language is "done" or ready to use for anyone's particular use case (e.g. Servo is still on nightly, and will be for the foreseeable future). There are crucially important things that are currently being stabilized, and delaying those for an additional three release cycles would just be an arbitrary obstacle for those seeking to shift their code from nightly to stable.

We also don't need three release cycles to get feedback because we've been collecting feedback all throughout the 1.0-alpha and 1.0-beta cycles. Now would be the worst time to institute a freeze on API additions because of all the APIs that people are clamoring for but that didn't make it to stable for 1.0 (https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/24028).

We're also working closely with several dozen companies using Rust to determine what development to prioritize (if you would like to add your company to this list, then please see the email address in my HN profile). As a result of this collaboration I expect to submit an RFC next week to propose that Rust 1.5 become the first LTS release, with subsequent LTS releases happening every at every fifth release. Do note that this idea is very preliminary (don't take it as gospel), but if accepted it would mean that we have until October 30 to stabilize any features that we want corporate users to be able to take advantage until the next LTS.

(As for that proposed "breaking change" that 1) wouldn't break any code in the wild, 2) would be trivially fixable with a lifetime annotation, and 3) could be opted out of with a single attribute, every company that I have asked about it has said that we should go through with it.)

[MetaCosm]

> if you would like to add your company to this list...

Sadly, in the near term, the Rust boat has sailed. LTS releases would give a real good reason to reconsider if they ever come about. What support durations are you considering for LTS, and where can I read more?