[bkst]

You can't resolve the interactionist problem by just fuzzing the definition of matter.

Materialism is the philosophy that all things are matter.

Quantum physics refutes the philosophy of materialism because it's incompatible with the philosophy of materialism.

If photons are not matter, then something is not matter, and if something is not matter, then materialism is wrong.

From that Wikipedia page:

'there is no single universally agreed scientific meaning of the word "matter". Scientifically, the term "mass" is well-defined, but "matter" is not. Sometimes in the field of physics "matter" is simply equated with particles that exhibit rest mass (i.e., that cannot travel at the speed of light), such as quarks and leptons. However, in both physics and chemistry, matter exhibits both wave-like and particle-like properties, the so-called wave–particle duality.'

Modern physics does not actually define matter. Matter was once synonymous with mass, but redefining mass to include properties that are incompatible with matter/materialism does not bolster matter/materialism's existence.

If mass is defined in such a way that it is incompatible with matter, then either mass or matter have lost their meaning. In fact, it is the word "mass" that has lost its meaning, while the word "matter" has been dropped by science.

It's not me that is confused, it is the materialists who are confused.

Quantum physicists and popularizers of science go around claiming to be materialists when quantum physics is completely incompatible with materialism and nothing in quantum physics behaves like matter. Feynman 'sum over histories' applies to all things, both macro and micro, and anything that behaves in that way is incompatible with the properties of matter. Since all things behave like quantum wave-particles, all things have properties that are incompatible with the properties of matter. If all things have properties that are incompatible with the necessary properties of matter, then no things can have sufficient properties for those things to be matter. If no things can have the properties of matter, then no things can be matter. If no things can be matter, then no things are matter. If no things are matter, then matter doesn't exist. If matter doesn't exist, then materialism is wholly refuted.

The logic against materialism is bullet proof from every angle. People just keep it up out of inertia.

[super_mario]

I think you are getting to hang up on technicalities of definition of matter.

Is your thesis that there are things that are non-physical? If so what evidence is there for that thesis?

[bkst]

The technicalities are the entire point!

If the fundamental nature of reality can't be analyzed technically, what can be?

The evidence that things are non-physical is quantum physics experiments showing that the fundamental components of existence lack the properties of physical things.

The two slit experiment shows that photons behave in non-physical ways.

The indeterministic wave function shows that reality does not depend on strict physical laws but on randomness, and randomness is not mechanisitic. Materialism is based on mechanics but quantum strangeness violates mechanics, therefore mechanics is empirically wrong.

The Schrodinger's cat situation shows that reality is dependent on observers--but matter is said to exist without regard to observers at all. The physical moon still exists when you aren't looking at it. The Schrodinger's moon does not--just as Berkeley claimed in 1713.

Bosons show that two objects can take up the same space at the same time.... but physical things cannot occupy the same space at the same time. This is like saying that you can drive a bulldozer into a house but the bulldozer and house don't have to destroy each other, that they have the option of happily occupying the same space. The materialism hypothesis would say this is impossible. "Physical" things do not behave like bosons, therefore bosons aren't physical things.

The evidence that the materialism hypothesis is wrong is quantum physics, where things don't behave in the ways that the materialism hypothesis claims they should. Therefore the materialism hypothesis has been falsified and refuted and is wrong.

[super_mario]

Entire quantum physics is a mathematical model of physical things by definition. Quantum wave function is a physical object as are all the other fundamental fields we know about. Photons behave in very physical ways, just not in classical ways like you would expect them based on experience with macroscopic objects we face every day. Likewise, bosons are physical objects that have physical and measurable/observable properties (but they don't have volume) etc.

So now you are getting a bit confused here.

[bkst]

>Entire quantum physics is a mathematical model of physical things by definition.

Quantum physics doesn't follow from definition, it follows from experiment. You are confusing a priori statements with a posteriori statements.

>Photons behave in very physical ways, just not in classical ways

What are "physical ways"? What are the properties of "physical ways"? When confronted with a hypothetical 'way', how can we know if that 'way' is physical or non-physical?

The answer is that physicists assume that all existents are physical and then conclude, based on that assumption, that materialism is correct. This is circular logic because materialism is simply the doctrine that everything is physical. So all they have done is assume that materialism is correct and then conclude that, because materialism is correct, materialism is correct.

In order to argue that materialism is correct you first have to define what materialism is, and what it is not. Is the materialism hypothesis even falsifiable? Or is it the kind of hypothesis that changes as soon as it is refuted?

[super_mario]

Actually quantum mechanics can be formalized and derived entirely from a few simple and reasonable axioms (that allow for negative probabilities), but yes historically quantum mechanics has been developed through empirical experiments. After all physics is (empirical) science unlike mathematics.

What I meant to convey was that all elements of the theory like quantum wave function, elementary particles (bosons, fermions etc), are elements of that physical model and hence real in that model by definition. It kind of makes no sense to talk about model independent reality, as quantum mechanics so nicely demonstrates.

This is why your statement that bosons are not physical is nonsensical.

In any case most real scientists are entirely open to new evidence of what you would call non-physical things (historically these were usually spirits, souls, demons, gods etc), but historically no convincing evidence has ever been provided for these. On the contrary each time mysterious phenomena turned out to be completely physical and explainable within normal physical framework, and in other cases clearly dreamed up.

It really isn't correct to say materialism or science is doctrinal. After it is not required to believe everything has to be material or explainable within our current framework (it would be akin to saying we already know everything).

However, opposite of materialism is dogmatically imposed in a lot of religions. It is a tenet of Catholic Church for example that materialism can not be true since souls and spirits must exist. This is not open for debate you must accept this to be a catholic. Just so we understand distinction between dogmatism and experience that everything we ever encountered so far has turned out to be physical. I will take evidence over dogma any day.

[sebastianconcpt]

Well science has to be technically precise so fuzzying definitions doesn't exactly make a point.

I don't think that there are non-physical things, but I'm sure the are lots of non-material things: time, space, a magnetic field, gravity ... many things and I wouldn't discard Consciousness as one of them.