[shit_parade2]

doesn't sound different from the US.

People believe the unashamed media propaganda, few speak anything besides English, many can't afford to leave, people believe the evil east is out to get them. In the 80s the NSA kept out of politics for most part... But now the state is taken over by a miz of NSA and criminal corporate-military-financial entities.

Nationalism and borderline Fascism is the order of the day. We've been at continuous war for over 14 years.

[simonh]

Comments like this depress me. It's like saying a matchstick is the same as a tree because they are both made of wood. Theres no real way to engage with a comment like that.

[yc1010]

"The US is no different or infact worse" is a typical argument used to justify various Putinite wrongdoings and deflect discussion. Just go to /r/worldnews for a taste on reddit.

* Russia aggressively annexing its neighbors? Hey look over there at the US and Middle East

* Russia curbing various freedoms and opposition? Sure the US is a 2 party system where there is no hope for change.

* Putin gaining complete control of the media? Sure in the US the media is all run by same companies.

And so on, the best lies are those sprinkled with a small grain of truth as the saying goes...

[shit_parade2]

>* Russia curbing various freedoms and opposition? Sure the US is a 2 party system where there is no hope for change.

Now this comment depresses me. Why not compare the us patriot act or civil forfeiture, or the wide spread illegal 4th amendment breaking mass surveillance program a whistle blower had to reveal (who incidentally lives in Russia now).

Then you use the phrase hope and change, is that satire, a man became president lying with that platform slogan.

How about including torture, indefinite imprisonment without trial, or kill lists to show how the US also has erroded civil liberties?

How much more comic book evil does the American empire need to become before people stop defending it with 'Russia and China are worse', maybe they are, but its a sad pissing match to ask if Mao or Hilter was the worst 20th dictator, both men caused tremendous amounts of Human misery.

Why do people want to defend a military that has killed hundreds if thousands of civilians? How morally bankrupt are the techies of hacker news.

[xixixao]

Look, the problem here is you are comparing bad with really really bad. People aren't defending the US via Russia here, people are saying don't defend Russia via the US.

Can you really imagine USA invading Mexico to extend its area of influence?

Facebook is filled with anti-US and anti-western arguments. VKontakte is filled with love for Putin. Apples to apples here...

[shit_parade2]

Try to at least study history. The US has a long history of staging coups and invading with special forces Latin American countries.

My point is they are both so bad that saying one is really really bad is like Dante discussing why the third circle of Hell isn't as bad as the fourth. Pointless academic nonsense, except the jingoistic RaRa America nonsense is killing hundreds of thousands of civilians.

[sqeaky]

Except this whole thread exists because an American company, SpaceX, led by a foreign national who chose to become a US citizen, Elon Musk, could create a company that competes directly with government run competitors here and nowhere else.

There are superficial similarities. But any investigation shows real difference.

[shit_parade2]

By contracting with the US military Musk has explicitly joined the military industrial complex, an arrangement akin to Mussolini's corporate-fascism, little different from a nationalized company in practice except there isn't even the facade that profits are shared. Profits are privatized once Musk has sucked off enough public wealth through government by building various machines designed in aid in the killing of people.

Maybe that is just the world we live in, at least except it and stop trying to glorify the killing of women and children for profit.

[sqeaky]

> military industrial complex

This phrase shows a simplified few events and organizations as they actually are. The rest of your post shows a fanatical viewpoint lacking in critical thought.

I will agree with you insofar as not everything is ideal with our military spending, the amount of spending and there is some corruption in military spending.

But the government and military must buy goods, this cannot always be fascism. There exists procedures and regulations that attempt limit corruption and to level the playing field for smaller companies. These rules are exactly what SpaceX used to get its foot the door. These rules require certain levels of "quality" and meeting certain requirements, this in effect rules out many of the smallest startups which contributes to why it is so easy for us to feel like outsiders. The smallest company I have seen provide military goods was 12 people, but most require at least 100.

The military also has other functions than "killing of women and children for profit", and claiming that this is one of their goals without evidence strikes me as fanatical. A military that wastes resources on things other than valid enemy targets is wasteful, we have defeated too many foreign powers to be that kind of wasteful.

I think our current military is built more along the lines of "kill the enemy and break his things". It is sad but sometimes innocent people are near the enemy or his things. It is also sad that we try to use our very effective "breaking" organization to occupy or police despite it not being well equipped for such.

[tsotha]

>I think our current military is built more along the lines of "kill the enemy and break his things".

That's what militaries are for. Once you deviate from that core idea you end up with an expensive boondoggle that can't win battles.

[shit_parade2]

Without evidence? It is true the US military refuses to count civilian murders and quaintly calls it collateral damage, as if brown kids are but roads and bridges.

What do you call 14 years of war in multiple theaters resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths? It that not fanatical? You should reassess your heart, you're in need of a new one.

[sqeaky]

You are objectively wrong. The military keeps count of civilian casualties and the numbers are close to civilian numbers but not identical. The deviance seems explainable by counting methods (for example if the building collapses 3 days after the attack should people injured here be counted or not).

My source if wikipedia, here is one of several examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_documents_leak

They do however keep these documents classified. I think this impairs oversight and all casualty reporting should be public.

As for the military being fanatical, I do not understand you point. The military did exactly what the publicly elected executive, the President, told them to do.

If you were able to speak objectively you should be destroying anyone taking my stance. You just keep shouting out things that are simple to demonstrate as wrong.

Our current violent streak is 15 and not 14 years long. If you can't get such basic facts straight how can you expect to convince others you are worth listening too?

As for the years of war, you should review history. As a country we have had 21 years of peace in the past 240 or so and our current run is in its 15th year. We have been a warring nation for a long time. This country is obsessed with violence, so we elect violent politicians.

It should be trivially easy to make a moral argument that obliterates anyone siding with the military particularly in discussion place like this. You can't make that simple argument because you speak without fact and with fanatical emotion. Let your emotion guide you, but be rooted in fact.

I cannot continue this discussion because arguing with someone so baseless lowers my credibility. This will be my last post in this debate thread.

[shit_parade2]

This will be mine as well.

If the current war began 2001-9-11 that would be 14 years not 15. You are wrong.

Classified documents are meaningless, I have a classified document that is proof I am God. See, how stupid you sound?

If you believe American is beholden to democratic concerns you are either a troll or hopelessly naïve.

Anyone who isn't upset that they live in a country which repeatedly kills civilians without cause is a monster.

[soperj]

Not to mention the whole "Greatest country on earth".