[jnbiche]

The quote does not imply this is the way things are, it's talking about what he believes things should be.

Yes, of course many people have to work nonsense jobs now or else they'd starve, but that's because we don't have anything like basic income. With basic income, the lack of food and shelter you refer to wouldn't be an issue -- at least for citizens of the country with basic income.

[jotm]

I agree that basic income would be a godsend. It would remove most of the basic fears that people have, giving them more freedom than ever.

But is it gonna happen? I don't see how it's going to work, maybe a few experiments here and there, but it will take a massive shift in thinking (especially for those in power, with the money/power) to make it a reality for everyone...

In the meantime, people will have to compete not only with each other, but also with robots to get a job, any job...

[sillygoose]

I'm guessing his point was that we're so accustomed to relatively comfortable living (especially here on HN), that we take valuable things for granted.

That leads to a sense of entitlement and confusion. We don't see how valuable the things we have are, so we end up thinking they should be "free", without realizing that nothing of value is actually free, because otherwise it wouldn't have value.

So if we experienced real hardship, our thinking would shift, and we'd appreciate valuable things more and we'd feel less entitled.

My point in another, heavily hissy-fit-downvoted message, was that everything of value costs something to produce, and therefore things can't just be handed out for free, because the things themselves are not actually free.

The same applies to "free money" in the form of Basic Income. People like to fantasize about not being personally responsible for their choices in life. Instead, they'd just get free money every month without having to work. "We have the technology!! Why aren't you giving me free stuff?! Damn capitalist oppressors!!"

People should think about how things work in the real world.

[icebraining]

nothing of value is actually free, because otherwise it wouldn't have value.

That's not how it actually works; price is only bounded by the value is brings, not proportional to it. For example, air is literally indispensable to life, but good luck selling it.

things can't just be handed out for free, because the things themselves are not actually free.

Sure they can; they've always have! Roads, cops, healthcare, education; hell, you're European, you should know. And plenty of people already live without working.

Maybe expanding it to the levels of allowing everyone to not work is (still?) unrealistic, but claiming "things can't be handed out for free" is silly.

[sillygoose]

> That's not how it actually works; price is only bounded by the value is brings, not proportional to it

Price can be whatever the hell someone feels like asking for something, which already invalidates your claim. I can ask for $500k for a bucket of shit, but you probably wouldn't be willing to pay it.

But there's a set price already, staring you in the face, making your claim look silly.

Now what you might be getting at is that the price you're willing to pay is bounded by the value you perceive in something, and that's certainly correct.

People aren't willing to pay for air because they have all the air they could possibly want to use at their disposal already. Air just is there. The fact that you can't survive without air doesn't mean you assign an extremely high valuation to it. You don't even think about air, let alone how much you'd be willing to pay for some in some specific situation.

> Sure they can; they've always have! Roads, cops, healthcare, education; hell, you're European, you should know.

You're just showing your ignorance here. None of the things you listed are actually free, as in, without cost. All of the services you listed are provided by people working in exchange for money, and the money has to come from somewhere, and it's not free. Someone needs to do something productive to pay for all of that, and.. well, it's actually our hard-earned money they're spending. Go figure.

> Maybe expanding it to the levels of allowing everyone to not work is (still?) unrealistic

That much we can agree on.

> claiming "things can't be handed out for free" is silly

Nice strawman there. That's not a claim I've made. Read again.

[icebraining]

Direct quote from your post: "things can't just be handed out for free"

Strawman?

[mcphage]

> People like to fantasize about not being personally responsible for their choices in life. Instead, they'd just get free money every month without having to work. "We have the technology!! Why aren't you giving me free stuff?! Damn capitalist oppressors!!"

People also like to fantasize about what others would do within a Basic Income situation. Not themselves, of course, they're better than that. But all of the unwashed masses, why, they'd waste all they were given, and demand more!

> People should think about how things work in the real world.

People should also do a little research into what happens when people try it in the real world before spouting their mouth off: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#Pilot_Programmes ...but why ruin their own perfectly good superiority complex?